to have my DS christened?

[ChampagneTastes]

I'd be really interested in responses from active Christians (if you know what I mean). Myself and my husband are both "culturally" Christian. We both were christened ourselves, married in a church and know a smattering of Bible stories. Neither of us are religious at all. I am agnostic and DH is firmly atheist.

We married in church because we both felt that the ceremony was a reflection of our culture and I felt that the religious aspect made it more formal and serious (NB: that's just for us; I completely respect other people who choose a non-religious ceremony).

DS is now 2. We weren't going to get him Christened because we felt that (a) it would be a bit hypocritical and (b) we didn't want to bind him to a faith he may not wish to be a part of. However, recently various friends have got married in churches and become Godparents and it has been pointed out that they can only do that because they have been Christened. I also want DS to feel part of a culture, even if he chooses to reject it later. Finally, and this is HONESTLY not the most pressing reason but it is a reason; the overscribed school that I'd like him to go to is, obviously, C of E. I have no idea if being Christened will make a difference to him getting in or not but I can't help but feel that if he did get in, he would be more a part of the community if he was Christened.

So: am I an appalling cynic and hypocrite if I do this? If I am, does it matter? I'm generally of the view that if there is a God he has better things to do with his time than worry about this sort of thing but I also don't want to make a mockery of the process by not doing it for the right reasons.

Anyway, flame away. I will try to listen to responses without getting all defensive and running away.

They also said "yes but it was there if you wanted it."

I think this sums up how I feel about getting my own kids christened. They can take it or leave it when they are older, and make their own decisions, but they will have it if the want/need it.

I agree to an extent about the ignorance about religion if you are atheist. I think that a lot of the time atheist parents raise their kids to believe that not only is religion a load of crap, but also something to be feared. My MIL is like this and even now, she comes to catholic mass on Xmas eve (she is never made to feel she has to, its her choice completely) and every bloody year she loudly pontificates about how sad it is to see 'all these brainwashed kids, who will never be able to make their own decision about what they believe'. She refuses to believe that these are just normal kids who are in the church for a multitude of reasons , and seems to just refuse to see the fact that her own son married one of these 'brainwashed kids' who she gets on very well with most of the time, and doesn't start covering her in rosary beads or reciting the bible at her randomly. She is completely ignorant and intolerant about religion.

I find that I am more tolerant of other religions than the atheists I know, because although I was only raised in one religion, I have that perspective to see how and why people might believe something iyswim. They can't understand why anyone would believe anything.

"I agree to an extent about the ignorance about religion if you are atheist. I think that a lot of the time atheist parents raise their kids to believe that not only is religion a load of crap, but also something to be feared."

And you're basing this view on a sample of one?

No, I was just using my MIL as one example of it. Most of the staunchly atheist people/people who were raised atheist are similar and are fairly ignorant/fearful about 'belief', although they are not quite as rude as my MIL!

"ost of the staunchly atheist people/people who were raised atheist are similar and are fairly ignorant/fearful about 'belief'"

Wow. So you think most atheists are ignorant or fearful about belief. Have you got any evidence to back that up? Or is it the usual "you're only not a Christian because you don't understand" position?

how insulting to assume that a child brought up without religion won't be able to make an informed choice.

nearly as bad as the 'Christian values' thing, assuming that those of us without belief have no morals.

Neverbuy - I think a lot of atheists refuse to accept that giving their children their atheist ideas is just as much 'brainwashing' as any child going to church. It isn't leaving the children with an open mind to make their own choices because they are told from an early age that religion is rubbish. Probably a lot of it comes from fear I don't know. Certainly it seems for many that if it can't be proved by science, they aren't interested. It seems like it goes beyond their comprehension that there are things we can't yet know (because science doesn't have all the answers) which perhaps comes from a place of fear. If they can't understand it it must be bad.

OP I am probably an agnostic Christian. I would like to believe in God but a little part of me wants more proof so I don't really have a faith. I do believe that a guy called Jesus existed and made a huge impact on the people of that time. Whether he was the a charismatic leader, a con man or the Son of God I don't know but I think the teachings that are ascribed to him are worthwhile and a good basis on which to live your life. My children are baptised partly because I want them to grow up with the ideals of the Christian faith although a major reason is that DH's family are deeply religious and it was important to them (FIL actually did both baptisms). It probably was a bit hypocritical, on my part at least, but I don't think it makes any differences to the choices the children make in later life. If they want to become anything else then they don't get confirmed which is them taking on the promises of the baptism for themselves.

I think in your shoes, rather than avoiding the baptism courses, I would do them. You seem interested in the cultural and spiritual side of baptism and you are agnostic so you haven't made your mind up yet on the existence of God. See if the process and the promises have any meaning to you and then make the choice. I am sure most vicars would be willing to talk it through and I suspect that they would refuse to do the baptism if they thought it was not right. Let them decide for you. It could be that you go for a thanksgiving/naming style service which avoids making promises but which makes a connection with the church community which you seem to appreciate.

"Neverbuy - I think a lot of atheists refuse to accept that giving their children their atheist ideas is just as much 'brainwashing' as any child going to church. I tell my children that I am an atheist. I don't "give them my atheist ideas" We talk. I tell to what I think and what other people think. They go to It isn't leaving the children with an open mind to make their own choices because they are told from an early age that religion is rubbish. Probably a lot of it comes from fear I don't know. Certainly it seems for many that if it can't be proved by science, they aren't interested. It seems like it goes beyond their comprehension that there are things we can't yet know (because science doesn't have all the answers) of course science doesn't yet have all the answers- science isn't finished yet- I just feel no need to fill the gaps in with the supernatural. Quite happy for them to be gaps until we find out enough to fill them with fact which perhaps comes from a place of fear. If they can't understand it it must be bad. No. If I can't understand it, it means that either I'm not clever or knowledgable enough, or nobody understands it because nobody is clever or knowledgable enough yet. No fear involved at all

Most atheists I know are scrupulous in not telling their kids that 'religion is rubbish'. I don't think I've come across any 'fear' of belief whatsoever.

how insulting to assume that a child brought up without religion won't be able to make an informed choice.

I took that as a compliment. Besides, to make an informed choice you'd need to be brought up with all of the religions, not just one. That comment makes no sense.

nearly as bad as the 'Christian values' thing, assuming that those of us without belief have no morals.

In primary school DS brought home a worksheet on 'Christian Values'. Was pretty shocking. Stuff about being nice to people and looking out for people - stuff people of every religion or non-religion happens to do unless they're a complete twat.

That bit of homework was returned with a note!

If I had a pound for every time Christians had told me that I only have to open my heart to God and I would believe, I would be a rich woman. I have only occasionally been driven to say that they only have to open their brains to reason and they wouldn't...............

Interesting that one of these exhortations would be considered rude and the other wouldn't.........

You are making lots of negative assumptions about how you think atheists teach their children, and why, BigBoob.

I am an atheist. I do not believe in any version of a god or gods. I am not fearful or ignorant, I just don't believe what you believe.

My children are not taught that religion and beliefs are rubbish. That would be incredibly disrespectful to large numbers of people that do believe in these things. If and when they ask, they'll be told that some people believe in x, y and z but I don't. What they believe is up to them.

As for science not having the answers... science never has answers, it has our current best explanation given our level of understanding. And I am utterly unbothered by things that we can't yet explain. That's the wonder of the universe which is amazing, not something to automatically generate fear!

I'm a Christian and a member of the local CofE church. My own children have not been christened because I'd like them to choose baptism for themselves (or not) as an older child or adult. I have no need to make promises to bring them up in the faith - I'm already doing it. For each of them we've had a short dedication as part of the family service to say thank you for their safe arrival and welcome them into the church. Some church members choose to have their babies christened, I'd say the majority do something similar to us.

The vast majority of babies christened in the church we have never seen before or since. Part of the liturgy requires the church to agree "to support these children in their growth in faith" and I always mutter a little caveat "if I ever see them again" under my breath. Offering baptisms, weddings, funerals to parishoners is a service that is part and parcel of being a "parish" church, and it's complete nonsense that not being christened would make any difference to accessing church membership, weddings etc later in life. School admissions where faith is a criteria tend to require regular attendance, not baptism (though I believe Catholic schools place more emphasis on baptism) The church do require parents to attend a preparation evening to consider the promises they will make, and see it as part of their outreach to the community to provide christening services.
The other observation is that there is such a difference between the pile 'em high, baptise 'em quick services where it's clear the parents/godparents are saying empty words and it's all an excuse for a party, and a thanksgiving or christening for a member of the church family where the congregation can actually get behind welcoming a new individual to the church.
FWIW I don't believe that God discriminates against children on the basis of being baptised or not, I have not a moment's worry on that score that my lot have not been dunked.

If you are a practising Christian, I don't see why not. Unless you're from Anabaptist denominations.

Why are some of you taking taking my comments so personally? I didn't say all, or most atheists, I said a lot. I also said that I didn't know if it were fear or not that makes them react the way they do. If it doesn't apply to you then fine but I have observed people who call themselves atheists like neverbuyheliumbalonz's MIL, making the claims about brainwashing and yet do the same thing themselves.

And yes, it is obvious that science doesn't have all the answers and is just a WIP. A lot of atheists (a lot, not all or most) claim that if God is not proven by science then he can't exist and my point was that science has very little to do with it. If God does it exist it won't be something that is proven by science but there are some who appear to be frightened by this. It looks like fear to me anyway - they are frightened of stepping outside of the rigid framework of science. Of course they would never admit it, probably don't recognise it as such, but that is what it looks like.

BigBoob, I think that you and I have a very different understanding of what science is and what it is not.

I didn't take your comments personally, I just don't recognise your description of atheists at all. No atheist that I know behaves that way, and they aren't afraid of what they don't know - quite the opposite in fact.

"A lot of atheists (a lot, not all or most) claim that if God is not proven by science then he can't exist and my point was that science has very little to do with it. "

Well, if somebody says there is this supernatural being who has a direct influence on our lives, and who we can have a relationship which and who answers our prayers, why is is somehow fearful to say "show me some evidence?
And you did say "a lot" of atheists. How many do you know? Because I'm an atheist and I don't know a huge number.

Not read whole thread.

OP, like you and your DH, I and my DH are culturally Christian but we do not believe in God so we are not actually Christian.

We got married in church, like you because that was what a traditional English wedding looks like, and that is what we wanted.

But we are not - definitely not - getting DCs christened.

The difference to me lawyer is down to the exact wording of the two ceremonies. In the C of E marriage ceremony at no point did I have to say I believed in God or promise to be Christian, act in a Christian way, etc. There's actually virtually no mention of God in the words the bride and groom say. I was able to say all the vows and mean them.

Whereas the C of E baptism ceremony is chock full of the parents saying they believe and promising to bring the child up Christian. No way could I say those words and mean them.

If my child wants to get christened later they can make that choice. I'm not reducing their options by not christening them. I actually think I'm widening their options - if they are not christened then religion wise they are a "blank slate" and there will be nothing to hinder them choosing a different faith later.

Going only by op thread (not read the rest) I would baptize actually - don't underestimate the importance of getting it done for schools.

I know it's hypocritical etc etc but unless you have the luxury of living near several community schools or church schools with no baptismal requirement, this could seriously cause you and your child problems.

I live in Lancashire and if you look at the Lancastrians schools booklet, almost every CofE school stipulates being baptized and church attendance as their first few criteria. Most also stipulate any religion at all before no religion.

In fact round here the CofE schools are stricter than the RC. In just my small town, there are 5 schools, 3 CofE all with heavy religious admission criteria, one RC with similar criteria and one community with an intake of 30. So if you don't live within 3 streets of the community school and have no religion the sad reality is you have to travel out of town and hope you get in their one and only community school. All very we'll quoting hypocritical but when you have more than one child or don't drive etc this quickly becomes a nightmare. And it that one community school is rubbish then.....

Hardly any church schools here take from non religions (some in other areas say take 20% non church) but not many schools in lancs do this...most just go by order and if you don't make it in the first few criteria then you won't get it.

Most schools with some sort of religion in their criteria take any religion above those with no religion so it's more important than people think. You know your area best but do research. It's not as easy entering a religion when your older. Round here the church (not just school) expect it under 2and if over that you have to go on in depth and long courses etc.

Intend to think it's pretty hypocritical, but your cultural points are fair. I know plenty of Jews and 'Muslims' who think it's all superstitious bullshit, but go to Synagogue or Mosque, and get married in them, because it is part of their and their family's culture. Nobody brands them a hypocrite.

As much as I'd like to see the Church of England (amongst others) crumble, it does seem sad that we are letting an integral part of English culture and our Northern European heritage slip away.

The greater hypocrisy seems to be people that castigate the likes of you for doing what every other culture does as a matter of course. For many, church and religion are cultural practices that transcend the belief in a supreme being. In a way, you are just continuing your cultural traditions; a bit like gardening or going to the pub!

Definitely do your research on the school issue because our area is totally opposite to Jamtoast.
My DH works for the church attached to the CofE school we want our DD to go to and she is criteria 7 of 8. The fact we are committed Christians with very strong connections with the church the school is attached to only comes above other children who happen to live in the city!

You do not need to be baptised to be married in a C of E Church and most of the C of E (Aided) oversubscription criteria I have seen are about attendance at church not baptism. If you are planning to have your child baptised in the C of E the parents and godparents make these promises:

Minister: Parents and Godparents, the Church receives these children with joy. Today we are trusting God for their growth in faith. Will you pray for them, draw them by your example into the community of faith and walk with them in the way of Christ?
Parents and God parents : With the help of God, we will.

Minister: In baptism these children begin their journey in faith. You speak for them today. Will you care for them, and help them to take their place within the life and worship of Christ's Church?
Parents and God parents: With the help of God, we will.

Later on in the service there is a section called 'the decision' and there are various words that can be used but at the heart is the question:

Minister: Do you turn to Christ?
Parents and Godparents: I turn to Christ.

Another part of the service is the profession of faith. There are several authorised versions but this is the most commonly used:

Minister: Let us affirm, together with these who are being baptized,
our common faith in Jesus Christ.

Do you believe and trust in God the Father, source of all being and life,
the one for whom we exist?

Response: I believe and trust in him.

Minister Do you believe and trust in God the Son, who took our human nature, died for us and rose again?

Response: I believe and trust in him.

Minister: Do you believe and trust in God the Holy Spirit, who gives life to the people of God and makes Christ known in the world?

Response: I believe and trust in him.

If parent(s) want to explore Christianity then I'm happy to baptise but some of my fellow priests and ministers in the C of E will insist on attendance on an alpha course or similar first.

Thank you so much everyone. Your thoughts are really helping to clarify my own. And thank you for not blindly attacking the thread - I apologise if I have offended anyone with any of my more flippant remarks (borne out of frustration at my own lack of clarity - sorry).

I think I have expressed myself badly in a couple of places, particularly where I talked about "Christian values". You are absolutely right - that was not really what I meant. I didn't mean that Christianity had some sort of monopoly on good morals; I don't believe that. Neither do I think that religious people are necessarily more virtuous than non-religious people. What I think I was trying to get at was a certain depth of experience that I feel I miss out on because I don't have (proper) faith. I try to do good things, be a good person, all that stuff. But I don't have that comforting certainty that (I imagine) someone with faith might have. I know that lots of people struggle with faith, particularly when awful things happen. I can sort of accept bad things happening but I can't accept a Grand Plan is at work. I don't know if that makes sense.

The other reason this whole thing has come up is, fairly predictably, because of the time of year. We're going to take DS to a carol service on Christmas Eve but I'm conscious that his only understanding of Christmas is that it involves sparkly lights and presents. He's only two so I'm not expecting him to grasp the concept of the birth of Christ but I'm not sure he's even HEARD the name Jesus Christ. He DEFINITELY knows who Santa Claus is. I don't even know why this bothers me, but it does.

I made a slightly flippant comment about how I should surround him with religious children. I was only partly joking: all the children I know raised within a religious family seem so happy and secure. I'm not saying that you can't have that if you're not religious, it just seems like an added bit of security that could be offered.

I'm grateful to all the people on the thread who intimated that the church welcomes us all regardless of their motivations but I also recognise that this whole question seems like a bit of mockery of faith from other people's point of view. It's really not supposed to be but I understand that view.

I think I will speak to our vicar. I think she might understand - she was very lovely to us when we married even though we were very honest that we were not going to be turning up beyond Christmas and maybe Easter. I haven't made a final decision but I think I might see if I can get DS a toddler-friendly book of Bible stories for Christmas.

Some good Christmas books for young children:
This is the Star
The owl and the star
On angel's wings (Michael morpogo)

When DS was born seven years ago we almost lost him at two weeks old. The number of things that fell into place to get him in front of the right surgeon at the right time was amazing and we felt 'something' had pulled everything together. Now we weren't religious people. I hadn't been to church, other than the usual weddings and funerals etc, for over thirty years. DH was the same. But we wanted to celebrate DS arrival and survival. I read that the CofE, which would have been our Church had we gone, offered a Thanksgiving and Blessing service. We approached the local vicar who had never performed one before but really supported us in doing it as he felt we had thought the issue through. So we had the first in our parish.

Prayers were said, hymns sung but no promise to God and no holy water. It suited us. We chose three 'special friends or supporters' who do the same job as a Godparent.

We were so grateful to the vicar for his help. We had said we would let DS make up his own mind about baptism when he was older but knew he needed to experience the church if he was going to make a proper decision. On a flippant level it's like saying you don't like curry when you've never tried it! So we took DS along to crib services, Christingle, Easter and monthly family service which is a bit more happy clappy than the traditional service at our church and kids are encouraged to take part in the service.

Upshot is that, six years down the line DS has asked if he could be baptised. We are happy for him to do it but want him to be sure so the vicar is going to have a chat with him about what it means, in a child's language, early next year and we'll take it from there if DS is interested. On top of that I have become involved in volunteer work for them! All from a simple alternative to a full Baptism.

Now I wouldn't say all vicars are as kind as ours and most people don't get as involved as we have over the years but it's a good alternative if you like the Christian culture but don't want to commit. Our vicar appreciated the honesty that a Baptism would, in effect, be a lie on our part as we had no idea if we would bring DS along to church to experience it and become part of the congregation proper. I just didn't feel comfortable in making a promise I didn't feel fully committed to keeping.