to have my DS christened?

[ChampagneTastes]

I'd be really interested in responses from active Christians (if you know what I mean). Myself and my husband are both "culturally" Christian. We both were christened ourselves, married in a church and know a smattering of Bible stories. Neither of us are religious at all. I am agnostic and DH is firmly atheist.

We married in church because we both felt that the ceremony was a reflection of our culture and I felt that the religious aspect made it more formal and serious (NB: that's just for us; I completely respect other people who choose a non-religious ceremony).

DS is now 2. We weren't going to get him Christened because we felt that (a) it would be a bit hypocritical and (b) we didn't want to bind him to a faith he may not wish to be a part of. However, recently various friends have got married in churches and become Godparents and it has been pointed out that they can only do that because they have been Christened. I also want DS to feel part of a culture, even if he chooses to reject it later. Finally, and this is HONESTLY not the most pressing reason but it is a reason; the overscribed school that I'd like him to go to is, obviously, C of E. I have no idea if being Christened will make a difference to him getting in or not but I can't help but feel that if he did get in, he would be more a part of the community if he was Christened.

So: am I an appalling cynic and hypocrite if I do this? If I am, does it matter? I'm generally of the view that if there is a God he has better things to do with his time than worry about this sort of thing but I also don't want to make a mockery of the process by not doing it for the right reasons.

Anyway, flame away. I will try to listen to responses without getting all defensive and running away.

I'm an active christian with a strong faith. And it wouldn't occur to me to be offended by anyone who wants a church ceremony for something. I say praise be! The Lord uses many ways to call us and lead us to Him. Church is there as much to reach out to the unbeliever as it is to nurture the faith of the converted. I rejoice when non church people come to my church and want some part of their life blessed. Their belief or lack of bears no relevance to God's existence, he is either there or he isn't, it isn't dependant on what people think. So even if you think you don't believe and you are just coming to my church for the pretty pictures, I believe God has lead you there for a reason. Hallelujah!

I'm a god mother to a catholic child despite having no religious background of any faith, so not being christened didn't matter there. The priest told me I didn't have to say any bits I didn't agree with. My dc have attended Sunday school so they could learn bible stories and be part of the community. Neither have been christened. We celebrate Christmas, Easter etc despite not being 'religious'. We are still very much involved in the community. You don't have to be christened to be involved. I suspect the issue is more to do with schools. Just because you aren't christened it doesn't mean they aren't allowed to join in with religious things. Yabu.

How are an atheist and an agnostic 'culturally Christian'? You're not Christian at all, in that case. I'm genuinely lost by what you mean by living life in 'a Christian way with Christian values.' Do you mean generally being a decent person? That is not an exclusively 'Christian' way of life - people from other religions, or indeed of no religion - can also opt to live their lives with commendable humanitarian values. And some Christians (and persons of other religions, or indeed no religion) can be vile swines.

I am genuinely aghast at people who don't believe in god but choose to marry in church or baptize their children. Why stand up in front of your friends and family and make promises that are essentially lies (given that you don't believe in the god you're swearing allegiance to)? And as a non-believer, it is surely belittling the beliefs of those who truly do believe?

Work out what you want and what has real meaning to you. Stop doing what you think you're 'culturally' supposed to do even though you don't believe in it. You can be a good person without believing in a god-head (or pretending to believe in it, for some odd 'cultural' reason).

It seems to be accepted that you can be a cultural Jew or Hindu for example but not a cultural Christian. I have a friend who doesn't attend synagogue, eats bacon but no one would say he isn't Jewish.
I think the Church of England is part of our heritage in this country and if you want to follow its norms and rituals without being a big believer then fair enough.
I also agree with the Christian poster who said that whatever calls us to church , we should be welcomed. It isn't for others to judge. My MIL who is a believer takes this view (and would have been upset if we hadn't married in church or had DS christened- why upset her if I don't have to?)

'Maybe if I could just get him to hang out with religious kids, that would help?'

Ermm yeah, that's probably all there is to it. Magic bullet right there.

I suspect from that comment that you're trying to provoke a certain type of reaction from commenters. Light the touch paper then step back, eh?

How is someone truly Jewish if they're rejecting those tenets of the religion that just don't suit them?

It's this sort of 'oooh, I'll just do the nice easy bits, but not the bits I don't like' attitude that genuinely puzzles me about some people who claim to follow a given religion. What percentage of beliefs/teachings is it feasible to reject? Is there a benchmark? If you eat bacon sandwiches but do everything else 'right' are you still Jewish?
A few years ago I worked for a Muslim family who liked to pass as the most devout persons you'd ever meet. And yet they all drank alcohol, had extra-marital affairs, and so on. Were they genuinely 'good' Muslims, just because they said so but still did many things that the Qu'ran forbids?

"My MIL who is a believer takes this view (and would have been upset if we hadn't married in church or had DS christened- why upset her if I don't have to?)"

Because you have to make promises and agree to do certain things if you christen your child which if you are not a Christian cannot possibly keep or do.

Re being jewish but eating pork or not attending synagogue... I once asked my dh this as he is jewish, and his response was basically that, in the eyes of god, eating pork is far less of a sin than not being a nice person (for example).

So if you attend shul, keep kosher etc, but treat others like crap then you aren't as Jewish as someone who might eat bacon, but treats others with kindness.

He explained it much better than that, but that's the rough idea!

And IMO, yabu. There is nothing to gain from baptising your ds. So why do it?

It seems to me that the people who have the most issue with this are the people who are not Christians.
As a practicing Christian, I agree with amicissimma who rejoices in someone coming into church for whatever reason.
In my church, people who are having their child baptised who are not a regular member of the congregation have to do a 5 week Basics of Christianity course, to make sure they fully understand what they are having their child baptised into. A large number of these then do not go ahead because they feel they cannot make promises that they do not believe in.
I'm not entirely sure I agree with making people do this, and I know some of our ministry team are the same.
If your minister (vicar) would do it, then go ahead I say! :)

I agree totally with Sirzy. I don't really understand why you want to do it if you are not a Christian.

I think it's unlikely that a child from no religious background will ever grow up to make an informed choice about religion. They come from a place of ignorance and don't have the faculties to make a decision. Your son will at least have the basics and can choose for himself.

Exactly what listed says.

I have kept my promises so far :) We take DS to church, we were there on Sunday in fact. We tell him Bible stories- lots of nativity at this time of year but we have done Noah as well- as he's only 2.
We teach him to be kind and to do unto others etc- surely that is the best lesson?
I agree with whoever said the Christians don't seem to mind welcoming whoever- not sure why it would bother unbelievers what we choose to do with our Sunday mornings? Our church is very welcoming and in the 3 years or so we've been attending I've never been quizzed on my beliefs.
The point I was trying to make about Judaism is that it is a culture as well as a religion. Not sure why C of E should be any different.

It's impossible to raise a child in a cultural vacuum - you have to choose whether to bring the child up either saying there is a god, or isn't a god, or that no-one really knows whether there's a god, or never mentioning god. Even not making a choice is a choice.

I think it's fine to choose baptism for a child as an agnostic. That may turn out to be the first step on a journey towards faith, or may not, but it won't do any harm. It may be helpful because sometimes the hardest step to take is the first one, so maybe it will make it easier to start exploring faith later.

I am in two minds about this as well. I am agnostic with an atheist dh. Both of us c of e christened. Our mothers are both putting pressure on us to christen dd despite neither of them being religious. I had a big do because it was the done thing and dh because he was accident prone which I always thought was a bizarre reason!

Here we do have the school issue to consider, but it was also bought to my attention about the choice of burial and getting married in church here apparently dd couldn't do either if she wasn't part of a religion. Whilst I want her to have choices I wouldn't want her to be excluded from anything either.

I looked at various churches but don't want to do a course. There was another option and they published the service but I realised I'd have to change a lot of it in order for me to be comfortable with it because of my own issues with my faith. For example I couldn't stand there and listen to someone telling me children are a gift from God but I am more comfortable with the protection from evil and Christian values aspect of it.

Anyway I'm still undecided but when she was born we were asked for a religion for the bc. I hesitated but ended up putting c of e. It turns out she'll get the benefits without having to have a ceremony and I quite like that idea.

I would imagine a high percentage of children are only christened to get into schools or because the parents want the party and gifts.

I don't believe in children being christened under much older when they can make their own choice re religion and what they believe.

I never planned to get my DS christened but he got his faith and belief in school. I come from Catholic and c of E parents and had to decide what religion ...

You are not trapped in a religion.. but I think you need to think if you are bothered culturally then you should at least take him .A service at 2 will not make any difference to him

We aren't religious either, but still got our eldest (and hopefully our youngest too!) into the local over-subscribed CofE school. We were completely honest with them about our situation and they weren't put off.

I suspect ds got in under diversity criteria, but we'll never know for sure.

Don't lie. There's no need and you'll keep your integrity.

I would also add that it's definitely not about presents for me but I do know of people having dc christened for this reason.

Also I'd like to add a bit about older children. I have some relatives who are born again and members of an evangelical church. They had their children baptised when they were about 10 /11. There were kids there slightly younger. They all had to give testimonials about how they found god. Most was when they were sent away to camp and it made me very uncomfortable. They'd have liked you to believe it was the child's choice but I wasn't convinced!

Champagne I've only really read your posts so apologies if I'm repeating anything.
The reasons you have given for getting your DS christened can all be achieved without having a ceremony saying things you don't fully agree with.
To be part of a church community you don't need to be baptised. You can be a Christian or hold Christian values without being baptised.
If you want your DS to grow up knowing the bible and Christian values take him to church.
I would also say you are asking lots of questions about faith and God etc. and I understand why people get frustrated with the church over things like women bishops but don't let that put you off going to church and discovering God for yourself and your family.
There are also a lot of really good churches that can provide you and your DS with church community that are not CofE. Google Vineyard churches or New Frontiers, both great groups of churches that don't have all the political mess that surrounds CofE.
Anyway hope that helps. I am a Christian and go to a CofE church and do question whether it is right that we allow people who don't have a solid faith stand before us as a church and God and say things they don't believe. The flip side is that during the baptism the church also makes vows to the child which it can't keep if the family is not actively part of the community, I think this is more wrong.
Hope that makes sense, sorry I've written an essay!!

"I think it's unlikely that a child from no religious background will ever grow up to make an informed choice about religion. They come from a place of ignorance and don't have the faculties to make a decision. Your son will at least have the basics and can choose for himself."

He will have 'the basics' of one religion only. How will that aid him in making an informed choice later in life? How will being christened be a benefit if, later in life, he wishes to pursue Judaism or make a different religious choice?

Incidentally, I was not raised within any specific religion and I have managed to make a fully informed choice about religion. I have the ability to understand complex, evidence-based arguments and have made an informed choice.
about religion.

To day that someone who isn't christened by a family who don't believe anyway "come[s] from a place of ignorance and [doesn't] have the faculties to make a decision" is ludicrous. And if his parents have chosen to baptize him into a specific religion the choice has been made FOR, not BY him.

Doesn't being able to make an informed choice depend on other things too?

Like the kind of education they get for a start. I was taught about all the major religions at school and taken to their places of worship.

I went to church holiday clubs though because it's where my friends went and youth groups likewise and dh was the same that didn't influence our beliefs in later life.

ITA, neleh. Also, it's surely much easier for someone to learn something later than have to unlearn something first if you've picked the wrong religion for them.

in two minds. I have been brought up catholic - christened, communion & confirmation. I am Pagan and maybe a bit more eclectic - I believe in theories from all religions and science, but I still believe in a God and Jesus Christ.
DP is firmly athiest he says, but I believe he is more agnostic. He will believe it when he sees it and he believes there is a higher power, just not necessarily a God.
I would like my children christened but DP wouldn't as he was given the choice. I wasn't. We may get married in a church as I am technically catholic, just not have the full ceremony.
I was mainly christened to get me a school place but my whole family is Catholic. They also said "yes but it was there if you wanted it."
I can't get unchristened, but I may be, say, anointed in another faith if I want.
Going to a catholic school influenced my beliefs a lot. I just didn't like the fact that I was learning Wicca (year and a day studying to become Wicca) when I was at school, I refused to put my hands together and do the sign of the cross, I said, I'm not catholic.
I was put in Isolation for that - they have to take a percentage of other faith children who don't have to put their hands together.
Religion is absolutely shoved down peoples throats, be wary of it because I believe (and it is true) that religion is used to control people. Some of it, ime, is borderline brainwashing, I choose to ignore and follow my own path, i don't think I would had I not been christened.

"think it's unlikely that a child from no religious background will ever grow up to make an informed choice about religion. They come from a place of ignorance and don't have the faculties to make a decision. Your son will at least have the basics and can choose for himself."

Really? So generations of missionaries were wasting their time? And why assume that just because a child is not christened they will come from a "place of ignorance"? We are an atheist household- my dd is in her first year of a Theology degree.........

I suspect that stating that those 'ignorant' unbaptized persons are incapable of making an informed decision about religion actually means 'they are less likely to choose to believe what I believe, and therefore are ignorant and wrong'.