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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What did the Boomers ever do for me?

444 replies

Nomama · 17/12/2014 10:06

In the interests if balance, you understand!

I shall start with the Ford machinists:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_sewing_machinists_strike_of_1968

Equal Pay Act 1970

My thanks to you, Baby Boomers. Without you I couldn't have earned the same honest day's pay as the man working next to me. Hell, I couldn't even have got the job in the first place.

Now this generation needs to thoroughly break the Glass Ceiling!

OP posts:
elephantspoo · 20/12/2014 14:46

Where is this extra cash in our pay packets because I'm not seeing it.

Then you are doing it wrong. You are approaching the job market wrong, or you do not understand how the job market works. The principle is the same. You must provide value, and you get paid according to how much value you bring. But do not get hung up on any narrow minded definition of what constitutes 'value', or in the traditional concept of employer/employee relationship based job paradigm. If you choose to box yourself exclusively into an outmoded employment concept and are unwilling to learn or develop in the modern world, your only choose is to increase the value you give to the market. You really are limiting yourself by not exploring and understanding how money is earned in today's job market.

WetAugust · 20/12/2014 14:47

As far as I know the huge pensions only went to people who worked in the same job for 20+ years after leaving school at 16 and if you worked for a large company.

Lots of talk on here about "gold-plated pensions" which i assume mean final salary index-linked.

But just how much do you consider to be a "huge" pension as described in the quote about.

Genuine question as someone who followed the route described and worked for almost 40 years in the same organistaion. How much do you think my huge pension is?

Nomama · 20/12/2014 14:48

Did someone specify a year, Oxon? Sorry if they did, I missed it!

I know there were grants, I know they changed to loans, I know the loans changed over the years. I also know that the current fees are paid back very, very slowly - so as not to damage anyones credit rating. I also know, I looked at the repayment calculator, that most people are expected to repay less than 50%.

OP posts:
LePetitMarseillais · 20/12/2014 14:48

Erm too busy working,sorry.

2 x wp family(as are most of us).

I have the time to vote though,sadly not a lot to vote for.

More than a little disingenuous re the assumption that "getting out there" is so easy.

elephantspoo · 20/12/2014 14:50

Nomama - I understand your logic, but I see a system that is faulty at a fundamental level, and I cannot see that by supporting its existence, I can ever fix that. The principle that man must be governed by a ruling class is not one I personally can accept. I must live within the system, understand how it works, and take advantage of it for the benefit of raising my family, but I do not need to lend support to its perpetuation.

Nomama · 20/12/2014 14:54

Not disingenuous as plenty of people with kids and jobs do it! Most of the people I volunteer with have full time jobs - many are in their 20s, many in their 70s.

Many have full time jobs and kids, school aged kids mainly. They manage to give a couple of hours a week to do whatever it is they choose to do.

A couple are single mums/dads, some work full time and still manage to get out and do something.

It is about priorities I suppose.

WetAugust I could guess, but no one would believe the figure I would come up with... mine is pretty dismal, again no one would believe it! Fortunately I didn't rely on it and will have savings too.

OP posts:
Nomama · 20/12/2014 14:57

A philosophical difference only, elephantspoo.

I have always raged against the machine. Noisier, often bruises, but is my way of dealing with the same dislike of the system!

OP posts:
elephantspoo · 20/12/2014 14:58

Petit - ... Because I'm assured it's easy to put all the ills right with a vote at the ballot box.... tell us all who to vote for and job done.

If voting had the power to change things, it would be against the law. 100 years ago men were sacred that if women could vote they would lose control of this country. They were wrong, and it has been proven. Not because of any male/female dynamic or power struggle, but because voting does not change how the country works. Money does, and at volumes far greater than 99% of us will ever have access to wield.

LePetitMarseillais · 20/12/2014 15:00

When?

Sat and Sun I am cleaning and doing the 101 things I don't do midweek that needs doing.

Midweek I'm collecting kids,cooking their tea,doing their homework and trying to grab some time with them.

Where is this imaginary time and for what party?

Mintyy · 20/12/2014 15:01

I'm a baby boomer and fully appreciate how "lucky" we have been with regard to house prices. We bought in 1998 our current area of London (although the value of my first flat went down in the period 1988-98). But we cannot afford to move on to a larger or nicer house, because house prices affect everyone who has has a mortgage.

However, I am only in my early 50s and dh and I fully expect to still be working at 70 if we are able to. We have no pensions to speak of.

We will be spending an lot on supporting our children at University when they reach that age.

What I really don't understand, if people who are younger than me are so much worse off, is why the birth rate is rising so rapidly? I really can't get my head round that one.

The reductive reasoning from some of the anti baby boomers on this thread are making me snort with laughter though, so sincere thanks for those.

People whose parents make stupid comments about Starbucks and i-phones - why don't you just point it out to them?

TheChandler · 20/12/2014 15:02

Personal experience of the baby boomer generation, admittedly limited, through my and DH's parents, is that they are way more irresponsible than our generation. Mistakes they have made would have them paying for it for the rest of their lives.

University access was perfectly possible for children from ordinary backgrounds who were clever - DH's parents both got in, got grants and tuition fees paid - and still managed to drop out without getting degrees. Nonetheless, both strolled into well paid professional level jobs which you now need a degree and work experience to get into. As a first time buy, they bought a terraced stone built house in a popular part of the city, recently up for sale again for £375k. DIL took early generous retirement at some ridiculous age, 53 I think, and never worked again. MIL has generous final salary scheme. They now have multiple homes, boats, cars, etc.. There is no way that university dropouts in well paid but middling jobs would be able to achieve that now, never mind all the money they have wasted in selling and buying said houses, cars, boats, etc. at a loss because they constantly change their minds!

My parents were even worse - chopping and changing jobs and mother never worked much at all. Somehow they managed to fail to buy their own council house (which is quite an achievement in itself) but my uncle gave them a house, which eventually they re-mortgaged to give themselves a pension. The council house in question that they failed to buy "wasn't good enough" for them, although the state gave them, a young employed couple with one child, a 3 bedroom semi detached new build in a lovely location, now selling for around £170k.

The thing is, none of them ever suffered from their various mistakes, which would have led to lifelong financial detriment in the current generation. None of them can literally do anything for themselves - they always have to pay someone to do stuff we have learned to manage with DIY, whether that be decorating or repairing our homes, cars, computers, whatever. They think we are mean or not hard working enough because we do stuff ourselves to save money or don't buy a new car every 3 years, or have cheap holidays abroad!

As for all this outside toilet stuff, none of them has ever experienced, neither had their parents. I remember my grandfather, who never went to university, always had a decent car and grandparents and their friends all went on package holidays to Spain every year! In fact, grandparents probably had a similar standard of living to what someone in the same work (skilled manual labour) would have today; it is my parent's generation who did spectacularly well and ended up in the 1/2 million pound plus properties and final salary pension schemes, with no special effort.

The employment market too is way more competitive than in former generations - the fact that women now work means there are more employees to compete against for that job. Obviously this is a good thing, but we also have way more workplace assessment, review, etc. than my parents did, who were basically in a job for life unless they spectacularly messed up.

elephantspoo · 20/12/2014 15:04

Nomama - Indeed. We must all live within it, or leave and live within another system elsewhere. So just a different way of looking at the political animal. I choose to disengage and withdraw support. It has no possibility of affecting change, but I see it as both pragmatic and honest, and I see myself as having every right to criticise a system I neither support nor condone, because rather than it being a system I support that isn't doing what I want it to do, it is actually a system that has been forced upon me and is acting against my best interests.

Aside... The pragmatic approach is always to do what is in your own best interests given the evidence before you, and in neither case can one argue that ignorance is an excuse to be deluded, fucked over, or ripped off by the system.

Nomama · 20/12/2014 15:04

Petit, you are just being stubborn/resistant now.

You could if you wanted to, You don't want to, so will not!

Fine! That is your choice.

OP posts:
elephantspoo · 20/12/2014 15:08

Petit - You are playing the old psychological game of 'Why Don't You, Yes, But'. People tell you the truth as they see it, offer solutions, and you reply, 'Yes, But...' It is basic Psychology 101. The ONLY winning move to that game is not to play.

Nomama · 20/12/2014 15:09

Chandler that was nice for your parents and grandparents, But does not negate the outside loo as a reality for many others. Just as the profligate and wastrel lives of yours, as described, does not mean all others of their age were the same. Which is, to be honest, much of what I have been trying to point out for pages and pages now!

The pragmatic approach is always to do what is in your own best interests given the evidence before you, and in neither case can one argue that ignorance is an excuse to be deluded, fucked over, or ripped off by the system.

Smile
OP posts:
LePetitMarseillais · 20/12/2014 15:12

Nom no I have a full time job,children to feed,clothe and clean for alongside a mid 40s body.

I am knackered after work,want to see my kids and have masses to do that never gets done as it is.

elephantspoo · 20/12/2014 15:13

University access was perfectly possible for children from ordinary backgrounds who were clever. - As it is now, only many millions of children not served well by the system in previous decades now have access to the sum total of all of human wisdom, and the most brilliant minds currently living. We have the greatest and least expensive education system in our country than has ever existed in history. But I'm sure we can all frame it in a way to explain why it's shit if that were our agenda.

elephantspoo · 20/12/2014 15:15

Petit - All a culmination of the choices you make, and where you go in the future is a consequence of what you choose to do.

senua · 20/12/2014 15:17

Here's a question for those who are struggling to afford a house: in the recent Autumn Statement the Chancellor reduced the amount of stamp duty that most (normal, non-millionaire) people will pay. If you were buying a house now would you say "no, I'll still pay under the old scheme. I'll pay more than I have to because the national coffers need it more than I do." Or would you keep the difference?

If you vote to keep the difference then you have no more morals than babyboomers.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 20/12/2014 15:21

Chandler if your PiL got into University what 30, 40 years ago, then they would have been in the top 5 to 10% academically. I would imagine most people in that bracket do OK for themselves nowadays too.

LePetitMarseillais · 20/12/2014 15:22

Elephant many less fortunate than me don't have a choice.They have to work and work in shit jobs that pay little just to afford a mortgage or rent.

TheChandler · 20/12/2014 15:31

Tinkly Chandler if your PiL got into University what 30, 40 years ago, then they would have been in the top 5 to 10% academically. I would imagine most people in that bracket do OK for themselves nowadays too.

Not so Tinkly, teachers on their salary would never be able to buy a 400k house as a ftb now; neither would they likely to be sitting in a 800k plus house now, unless they did something very unusual or special. Which they haven't.

I wouldn't describe them as being in top 5 - 10 % academically either, more like the top 50 or 60%. Its just that they were able to get full maintenance grants, possibly because both their sets of parents were self employed. Both went to ordinary state schools, neither very good nor very bad. Was always the case for motivated children when maintenance grants were around, if they were bright enough (and independent enough), they could go to university from a relatively poor background. My profession (the law) is full of senior partners from similar backgrounds. Its just that it doesn't suit the left wing agenda to admit to it.

elephantspoo · 20/12/2014 15:33

The fact that women now work means there are more employees to compete against for that job.

And more employers to approach for jobs, and more women in decision making roles. You can argue that the job market has changed, but unless you actually understand how it has changed, and the skill sets needed to succeed, you are arguing from a position of ignorance. Our children are being taught by people who are supremely ignorant, by teachers and academics who have no idea how the economy or the employment market works. So why expect children to be equipped for employment when they have been taught by the most economically ignorant among us?

Regardless, it is OUR responsibility to raise, teach and equip our children for life in the world. We cannot abdicate that responsibility by giving it to someone else, and we certainly have no right to complain that someone else didn't do OUR job right for us.

But we also have way more workplace assessment, review, etc.

That is entirely by choice. I choose not to. I have never submitted a CV or required a degree for work, and never been submitted to review.

Who were basically in a job for life unless they spectacularly messed up.

As we are now. The only difference is that most people do not understand how the job market works, and that the job paradigm is changing. I have a single job which I do,now, and will do for my whole life. I am someone who who exchanges my time, labour and skills for money. That is my job. I will provide whatever time, labour and skills I am required to supply for the money.I want. I will change any or all of those factors to match the needs of the market to secure my share of the money available. The only difference between me and my parents is my view of the job market. There is far more money in the world, and far less competition at this current time than ever before, because so may people just don't get it. They choose to live in desperation rather than learn and adapt, and they blame their parent instead of taking responsibility for their lives.

If our parents have any failing, it is a failing to raise us to take responsibility for ourselves.

OxonConfusedDotCom · 20/12/2014 15:38

Elephant- v inyrigued to know what you do! While i disagree with some of what you say, i find your views on the job market refreshingly pragmatic. Agree kids are ill-prepared for what is to come.

elephantspoo · 20/12/2014 15:43

If you vote to keep the difference then you have no more morals than babyboomers.

That is a completely fallacious statement for two reasons. Firstly, you cannot accuse someone working within the bounds of societies laws, who is acting in the best interests of their family using, of doing so immorally. It is everyone's moral duty to act in the best interests of their family base on the evidence they have at the time, and within the confines the laws of their age.

Secondly, manipulation of stamp duty taxation thresholds is merely an accounting trick, and I would argue that not understanding that you are being tricked, and in fact your net taxation burden is rising, is increasing, not decreasing, is the fault in the character of peoples in the country.

Ignorance of the system and how it works is what keeps people poor. Not the system per se. Overcome the ignorance barrier, and your odds of success increase immeasurably.

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