What did the Boomers ever do for me?

[Nomama]

In the interests if balance, you understand!

I shall start with the Ford machinists:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_sewing_machinists_strike_of_1968

Equal Pay Act 1970

My thanks to you, Baby Boomers. Without you I couldn't have earned the same honest day's pay as the man working next to me. Hell, I couldn't even have got the job in the first place.

Now this generation needs to thoroughly break the Glass Ceiling!

[TheChandler]

The one thing you can count on is peoples' inability to learn from the past.

Sadly too often it is true.

Yep, Erik the Red apparently Garlic with his East Greenlandic settlement, who were forgotten by their own country and left to presumably die out in one of the global warming and cooling periods that mark human history.

[elephantspoo]

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that!

I would feel slightly better about this if I weren't facing constant evidence that everyone accepts the lies and makes like a blind monkey.

Wasn't life so much easier back when we had our heads in the sand?

[tobysmum77]

but the chandler the price is then determined by demand and supply . Building ground to a halt during the financial crisis as there wasnt enough money to be made which is one of the issues.

If government interfere and encourage more building that isn't free market.

[TheChandler]

tobysmum but demand is always guaranteed by the government to be greater than supply due to zoning, other than when it gets out of psychnc by stuff it can't predict. You can hardly say its a very successful housebuilding policy, nor a very ethical or forward thinking one. If as a government or local authority, you only allow new build on areas of 1-2 hectare on the edge of towns and villages, what you get is large developers or supermarket chains buying up once farming land and sitting on it for years waiting for it to be zoned. Its simply not possible for the individual to compete on that market, hence the few self build plots that there are carry a massive premium.

Just look at how the government trains people to "think" we need more new build homes - all those press releases about housing shortages meaning we need some random number of new builds, but never any change in policy of how to provide them e.g. by encouraging self build, or encouraging more terraced sized family housing, because detached "family" homes is where most profit lies for big developers.

The typical self build is I believe around 1/2 - 1/2 half cheaper than the typical new build, and that figure is within the control of the self builder to a much greater extent.

Self build is actually not that unusual in many other developed parts of the world. e.g. Belgium.

[elephantspoo]

But the price is then determined by demand and supply. Building ground to a halt during the financial crisis as there wasnt enough money to be made which is one of the issues.

Not in my experience it didn't (assuming you are talking about the 2008 financial crisis.) In my experience the industry moved from speculative building projects to investment building projects. The funding source merely moved from those gambling in the markets, to those who understood the market and realised it was a good time to take advantage of it. Out with speculative office developments, in with housing, retail outlets and warehousing.

If government interfere and encourage more building that isn't free market.

There hasn't been a free market in the UK since the beginning of the 1900's. Some would argue 50 years prior to that. Suffice to say, the British Government have been exerting control over the markets for over 100 years.

[elephantspoo]

TheChandler - Generally speaking, you can save about 30% or so on a comparative small build. But I'd imagine its a lot of hard work asking an educated single individual to do the admin work of a small house builder and on top of that manage to procure materials at the same costs a repeat builder would be able to negotiate.

A basic rule of thumb is if you self build four houses, and manage to sell three, the fourth one is free, which, if you have the capital, is really a way of exchanging two years of your working life for a free house. A bargain in anyone's book.

[GarlicDrankTheChristmasSpirit]

Self build is actually not that unusual in many other developed parts of the world. e.g. Belgium.

Just to lighten the tone ...
www.facebook.com/uglybelgianhouses/photos_stream

[TheChandler]

elephant'spoo But I'd imagine its a lot of hard work asking an educated single individual to do the admin work of a small house builder and on top of that manage to procure materials at the same costs a repeat builder would be able to negotiate.

Why? I mean why assume that someone who doesn't do it as a business is going to find building their own house so difficult? Why should the British have such problems with that? Why start from that assumption?

Its not as if big developers do a particularly good job of it, or that it generally involves laying every brick by hand. If you proceed on that premise, people are going to find it equally impossible to maintain their own homes themselves, as in getting quotations, etc., so why not just advocate total state control?

Its not the "work of a small housebuilder" anyway, the ability of an individual to focus on a project that benefits them is different, the tax regime is different, obviously the building regulations and inspections are the same, although "planning gain" or LA payback might have a disproportionate burden on percentage terms.

And then there are building co-operatives - virtually everywhere they have been tried, they have been incredibly successful. But try getting enough self build plots in one place at a competitive price to make them effective.

[elephantspoo]

Why? I mean why assume that someone who doesn't do it as a business is going to find building their own house so difficult? Why should the British have such problems with that? Why start from that assumption?

Well, Building Warrant approval, assuming you get planning approved, isn't the easiest thing in the world, but that all depends on whether or not you are happy to build a little brick box or are more ambitious with your design.

Build sequence isnt terribly difficult, but it is stupidly expensive to put right if you get it wrong. A single self builder just won't be able to purchase materials at the same cost as a house builder, nor is he likely to be able to build at the same speed as a competent contractor.

But assuming you are willing to do all those things yourself, you are looking at a good 30% discount on the cost of your home.

Its not as if big developers do a particularly good job of it, or that it generally involves laying every brick by hand. If you proceed on that premise, people are going to find it equally impossible to maintain their own homes themselves, as in getting quotations, etc., so why not just advocate total state control?

That's a little ridiculous. To be honest, a lot of 'self-builds' involve only replacing the contracts manager with the building owner. The whole design and build process is still cariied out by others.

And then there are building co-operatives - virtually everywhere they have been tried, they have been incredibly successful. But try getting enough self build plots in one place at a competitive price to make them effective.

That's easy. Just buy a fields or a strip of land like house builders do.

[elephantspoo]

TheChandler - Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating not self-building. I think it's a great idea. But a surprisingly large number of successful self-builds are from families where one or other partner is already involved in the industry, usually Architecture or Construction.

[OxonConfusedDotCom]

It's rarely that straightforward - unless you have tons of equity, it may be hard to raise a high enough mortgage to cover you as looking at current not future value. Plus rental costs to cover 18mths plus of building work. A good long-term investment, certainly but many are unlikely to have the cashflow to do this.

We pulled out of doing just this a few years ago - couldn't afford double-whammy of rent plus mortgage every month.

[TheChandler]

Having self built twice, once from scratch and the other a conversion, and knowing quite a few other people who did so, I am going to disappoint you and tell you that it actually went very smoothly both times. The only people I've heard of having difficulties were those who didn't manage it themselves but used project managers. No architects or builders in either DH's or my families. DH's parents also self built their family home, but were pretty useless as a source of assistance!

By the way, we're not fussy - we lived on site in a caravan! I mean seriously, nothing went wrong at all, nothing interesting happened whatsoever, not even any interesting stories to pass on. It was a very, very cheap way of doing things for us because we did our own tiling and decorating (no-one ever spotted that from surveyors to viewers), but drew the line at roofing, plastering and bricklaying. DH did the plumbing and built quiet a few stud partition walls and put up plasterboard. He also laid all the central heating pipes and installed all the radiators, but got a (then) CORGI reg guy to sign it all off and connect it up, dug the septic tank, sent off the plans for water services, etc.. For the first one, I actually drew up all the plans myself then got an architectural technician to deal with the local authority, but it took me ages, so the second time I got him to do it all. We negotiated quite a few discounts for materials, we found that cheaper than getting supply and fit for everything except the roof tiles and bricks.

All this while both holding down FT jobs. None of this is very difficult - can you explain the problems we were supposed to encounter? What we do have a tendency to do now is to sometimes look at new builds and point out all the faults.

But I guess with the obsession with new builds on housing estates, we'll see this tendency to self build effectively stifled by legislating for supposed difficulties, so that will be another avenue the boomers enjoyed more than the current generation cut off.

[elephantspoo]

Oxon - I think there are specialist mortgage providers who pony up the cash in staged payments tailored towards the market. I assume they take an initial view on value off the plans and the core value of the land.

[elephantspoo]

TheChandler - Then we need to talk when I have the money to build. I have no intention of living out my retirement in some little box in the 'burbs. Living on site in a caravan doesn't phase me.

Incidentally, that raises one question. Let's say DCs live in caravan on site. Presumably you have to separate site of caravan from site of build. HSE prohibiting children on construction sites and all that.

I think the drawing thing is the bit I'd enjoy the most. The physical interface with Building Control is something I'd expect a layman to have a problem with. I've done it for years and I still thing they're AH bureaucrats. And the programming and establishing of the build sequence is the thing I think I'd stumble with. Putting in the drainage and the founds and the groundwater stuff before the first lift of brickwork and realising you had to go back and re-excavate, or getting your first fix electrics and plumbing right, before fitting the plasterboard and then having to take it apart if you got it wrong. And a lot of people don't get drainage and plumbing.

Realistically, I wouldn't do the mains connections for any of the services, of the outer envelope (brickwork/roofing/etc) the internal stuff seems no biggie.

As regards current new build works, most are not worth their asking price, and any warranty is worth only the paper it's printed on. Someone who believes a NHBC warranty is some form of guarantee of quality is deluding themselves. But it's a nice badge for selling overpriced garbage to the middle classes with.

[TheChandler]

Incidentally, that raises one question. Let's say DCs live in caravan on site. Presumably you have to separate site of caravan from site of build. HSE prohibiting children on construction sites and all that.

Who is at work and since when did a family dwelling become a workplace covered by the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974? By that analogy, any maintenance being carried out on your home would render it uninhabitable...I think the Health and Safety Executive might be a bit surprised to hear about this extension to their remit, and property owners to the fact that responsibility for their own property has been taken over by whatever contractor is on site at the time! Don't actually have kids yet (we didn't have pro-conception expert Kevin McCloud on hand...) but have friends who are currently self building with 3, and they have the kids doing quite a bit of stuff.

I think the drawing thing is the bit I'd enjoy the most. The physical interface with Building Control is something I'd expect a layman to have a problem with. I've done it for years and I still thing they're AH bureaucrats. And the programming and establishing of the build sequence is the thing I think I'd stumble with. Putting in the drainage and the founds and the groundwater stuff before the first lift of brickwork and realising you had to go back and re-excavate, or getting your first fix electrics and plumbing right, before fitting the plasterboard and then having to take it apart if you got it wrong. And a lot of people don't get drainage and plumbing.

The drawings were actually very easy, as long as you have an eye for detail and accurate measurement. I found it quite easy to envisage exactly what I wanted and put it on paper, (much easier than talking to an architect intent on pushing yet another cathedral height windowed reception area. It was very time consuming though, and the architectural technician (who wasn't expensive) informed us that local authorities just won't grant pp to architects/ATs they don't know, no matter how good the plans are. With the barn conversion, again I found it logical enough to work out what rooms would go where, what would work, where would need more light, etc..

The groundworks and drainage are about the easiest part of it! You just make sure you get it right! DH is an electronics engineer so did his own wiring, he would much rather he did it himself because some of the work he has seen in past properties done by supposed "electricians" is just scary. Again though, despite having a degree in electronics, he had to get it signed off by a "qualified electrician", who admitted DH had far greater knowledge and practical skills than he had ever seen. Its so stupid - DH isn't even technically allowed to change the facing on a socket in one of our walls since the latest edition of the Building Regulations.

Ditto with the plumbing and central heating; at least we know the joints are soldered properly and not by some teenager on NMW who can't wait to get home - sorry but again, seen it too often before.

What worked for us was getting first one room habitable, as in wind and watertight, with a temporary electricity supply (some isolated circuit on a star or something). We then expanded. Actually I loved living in the caravan, we parked it in an outbuilding so it was undercover and kept some heat in.

The other thing about doing as much as possible yourself - it is amazing what odds and ends people sell off dirt cheap in Free Ads - that's where our ultra luxurious showers came from, ditto our taps, sinks, flooring, and much else. Its not so much economy of scale as attention to detail and time to apply it because its your own property, and the ability to recycle second hand stuff.

For the outer stuff, we were fairly confident we could master roofing and perhaps even brickwork eventually, but its so much faster to pay someone else to do it. And brickwork is tricky, so is getting a roof look perfect. We did harl the walls ourselves though (planners insisted on this finish), and painted it afterwards.

tbh though I might have a luxury 5 bedroom home now but I still spend the odd night in the caravan...

[elephantspoo]

Just had visions of DCs running around a building site, but you make it sound as fun as I've assumed it would be. I'm more concerned about time/budget/running out of money mid build now than a lot of things. Don't think we'd end up with a 5 bedroom house, but a house to my own design would suit me fine.

[TheChandler]

I think they had the older ones (plus 10s) driving the digger and moving heavy stuff.

Honestly, it was no big deal, nothing remotely interesting happened, except it made steady progress until it was a complete house. The Building Regulations stuff you just follow as its all laid out. The most irritating part was the limitation on fancy lighting you can have because of having to meet energy efficiency.

Also, the bat and badger surveys were a waste of money and at over a thousand quid a pop for someone to poke around for an hour or two and sit in their car and observe the lack of bats and badgers, way too pricey. But you've guessed it, lack of competition once more - only one or two firms "approved" by the local authority, and of course the UK has to interpret European legislation as meaning you can't self-approve, as in most other Member States...

[Nomama]

You two do know you are proving the Boomer Bashers right, don't you ?

Oh you entitled self build dreamers/doers.

Have great Christmas xx

[elephantspoo]

LOL. I don't know about TheChandler, but I'm Gnereation X. I may not bash my forefathers, but that doesn't place me in any one generation or another.

Some poepe are just bitter twisted fucks who need someone else to blame for their lives. They were brought up that way. That's the fault for their parents for not raising them well, not their parent's entire generation.