to ask you if I emotionally abused my daughter last night?

[CloudiaPickle]

Dd is 8 and her father and I are separated and have been all her life. Shes always been different after contact because he has no rules, od derogatory about dh and I etc but I'd hoped I'd get better as she got older if I remained consistent with the boundaries at home.

However , this weekend has resulted in the worst behavior yet. In between contact shes usually polite, helpful, happy and a great big sister. She returned on Sunday afternoon and up until last might when things came to a head hardly spoke to dh and I other than to be argumentative/rude (I hated my packed lunch/advent calendar chocolate etc) Dh and I hadn't risen to the bait. She has been.ignoring everything and doing things she.knows she shouldn't so we have to.keep telling her off, she's been eye rolling, sighing dramatically, stomping and slamming around and shooting us filthy looks.

Within three space.of an hour last night she let go of her baby siblings pushchair when I.asked her to.hold it while.I.put the toddler in.the car and.it almost blew into the road. All she did was roll eyes at me when reprimanded. When home, she lifted her toddler sister into the top bunk where she knows she isn't allowed. I walked in to see toddler reaching over for a Christmas decoration and managed to catch her as she fell. Again, no regret or apology by dd just more rudeness.

Usually I read stories with all the dc but toddler dd was wary.of her sister because she.knew she had nearly been.badly hurt and because.of the moodiness and I thought dd needed an immediate consequence so I told her she was missing it and.going straight to bed. She was.screaming and wailing (extremely out of character) for at least 45 minutes. I explained that her behaviour had been disgusting and.I would not allow it to continue and affect her siblings too. I.told her I loved her and we would have a fresh start tomorrow. She stopped crying immediately when I.said that as she thought I was relenting about story time. When I said goodnight the wailing started again which tells me they were only tears of self pity and.to.get her way. There was still no apology or regret for her behaviour and.she still stomped.off to bed.

I spoke to my sister afterwards who said I effectively shut her out of the family last.night and was emotionally abusive :-/ what do you think?

(Sorry about the full.stops - phone is broken)

Wow this is what I went through when I was your daughters age and I really feel for her. I had the same from my dad who was divorced from my mum when I was a kid. I would dread going to see him, it was the same old diatribe of bitter, nasty stuff about my mum and not just that but my family on my mums side. I remember feeling so lonely, not really knowing who to talk to about it all and just remember dreading going to stay for the weekend every fortnight. I remember never wanting to go, I would cry, pretend I was ill anything to stop me going but I could never tell my mum I didn't want to go. My mum would force me to go as she would just say he was my dad. There was also the guilt I used to feel that it was my fault they were separated and that I'd done something for my dad to act that way. When I would get back to my mums I remember just the feeling relief that it was over and that I wouldn't have to go back for another 2 weeks. My mum kept pretty tight boundaries as well but I knew at the time she was right. However, its my mum that I still remain close to now and I'm coming up to 40 years old and to be honest I have the utmost respect for her as she never said anything bad about him even though he never paid her child support while she was bringing me up. Now as an adult, I've been able to make that decision to have him out of my life (another long story) but it's something I think I would have regretted making as a kid. You can only persevere with this one for them to keep this relationship. I don't know if I've helped in any way but to be honest with you I don't really think you're sister knows what she's talking about. Sometimes you need to shout at your kids to get the message across and they understand that especially if they've put their siblings in dangerous situations.

Pica saying you'd never leave an almost three year old alone or with an older sibling in a room is difficult to believe. I can hardly make her watch me cook/wee every time.

The behaviour is only the first two days after contact so I don't think it's just her age. We had a big chat the following day and she said she hatedbbeing at his because she missed out on being home with us and her siblings and he went to work anyway. When she asked why he'd asked to have her if he was working and wouldn't see her, he said I'd asked him to have her because I was busy with the baby. He also said I'd cancelled other contact and detailed things she'd supposedly missed because of this - all lies. The sad thing is she knows deep down its lies, but I think thats what causes her upset - knowing he's purposely trying to upset her and cause a rift between me and her.

I said to her that she can ask for timeaalone to talk with me whenever she needs to so that things don't escalate. It's just hard not putting her in the middle - am I as bad as him if Icconfirm to her that I didn't cancel contact, therefore inferring he's a liar?

I think the comments about op expecting her 8 year old to 'help her parent' are ridiculous and unfair.

I have a 6 year old that is very happy to be left to his own devices for a while if I'm busy. And a 4 year old that wants constant interaction, which is impossible when I'm in the middle of cooking dinner for instance.

I've asked ds1 to entertain ds2 a few times when I've been busy. To play a game with him or something. I don't class that as him 'helping me parent'. It's just normal family life.

CloudiaPickle - instead of contradicting her father's tale, perhaps you could ask him to provide you with a list of weekends when he does not have to work and offer to keep your daughter with you on those of 'his' weekends when he has an intractable childcare situation. If he agrees to it, then your daughter gets better quality time with him when he can give it and she gets to spend more time with you and her sibs.

Oh Cloudia that's awful! He is really stirring it, isn't he?

I don't think you have to say 'he lied' but something like 'he must be mistaken, I would never cancel contact' is fine. I'm no expert though, but I don't think you need to just sit there and take his lying.

Model the behaviour you want her to emulate - that's always been my rule of thumb when I'm torn between what I think is 'right' and what is 'best' for DS - what would I want him to do/feel/react if the situation was happening to him as an adult?

OP, you are doing your very best in a difficult situation.

I think, at some level, she envies the others who are at home with you, while she is with him, and she acts out a bit when she gets back, because she is struggling with that feeling, plus it sounds like he is stirring it.

I've no advice to offer but in my reading of it, absolutely no way did you emotionally abuse her.

No you didn't emotionally abuse her. But some people nowadays just throw out the word 'abuse' right, left and centre with no thought or care for what it really means. It's horrible, unfair and very annoying.

I think the folk saying oh well I would nt let an 8yr old be responsible for a toddler are just daft she was asked to hold a buggy she was told not to put her sister on a top bunk she is 8 not exactly being responsible and anyway if you are in a family you help each other even delicate little 8yr olds

Honesty is always the best policy. It would be far worse for her to think you did cancel contact needlessly just so she missed out on fun things to do etc, so tell her he's made a mistake.

She needs to be able to trust you (and dh) as she clearly can't trust her dad.

Is contact in her best interests really? Especially if he's at work. I would take notes with dates, in case thongs get worse and you feel that, in the end, contact is not benefitting her.

Poor little girl. It's so unfair of her dad to treat her that way. She must feel such divided loyalties, as well as insecure about whom to trust. I do think it is important not to feed into this situation by blaming her dad (as tempting as that might be and as justified as you would be in doing so!). Just reassure her that you know she loves her dad and wants to spend time with him, and that you would never stand in the way of that.

Does she have a close bond with her stepfather?

YANBU, you need to carry on as you are. She needs to learn bad behaviour has consequences. You also need to think of your other children as they will grow up thinking such behaviour is acceptable.

I don't think in any way it wasEAYour sister clearly has very different views than you so I would avoid having that type of chat with herHowever it must be do difficult being so young and gave separated parents and half siblings etc I think we adults sometimes forget that

I would make some 1:1 time for her, not rely on her to ask for it. I would also not do any punishments that make her feel more excluded form your family. I would find a different sanction. You are also putting blame in her that shouldn't be, your toddler wouldn't be wary of her sister from the incident you described. Not unless you reinforced those feelings in her.

It must be really hard being the only one having to move about all the time. I hated it and I had my brother with me.

You did what decent parents do, you dealt with her behaviour and left her in no uncertain terms as to who's in charge.

Your sister is a twat. Does she think you should allow shitty behaviour so that your daughter is compensated for not living with both parents? Because that will do your daughter the world of good, having everyone tip toe around her.

I'd certainly make some special time for just the two of you when she comes back from visiting her father.

Also, you don't have to put her at the middle of a conflict by saying "I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding because I would never send you away from me because I was busy with the baby."

It could be useful to involve her in the arrangements for visiting too. That way she mightn't feel quite as parcelled up and sent off. Agree dates that are then put in a diary that your dd can access. So she knows, in advance, when she's visiting and knows that you haven't just randomly sent her away from home. Don't allow your previous partner to mess about with the arrangements either.

Having separated from my ex-h when my dcs were 5 and 6, they went through a period of being very reluctant to visit because he quizzed them about me and my (very dull!) doings. When this stage passed, it remained very helpful to have fixed dates for visits rather than more random arrangements that constantly changed.

I don't think you were EA either. But you do need to get to the bottom of her unhappiness and to be honest, I wouldn't be too worried about your toddler being wary of her either. I'm sure she just picked up on the general atmosphere of upset.

She is 8 years old. Have you asked her what's wrong?

I think you should be factual and honest with your DD. After all you want her to be factual and honest with you.

Also can you have a girlie film evening when she gets back from dads to help her feel more centred and treasured.

Like the calendar idea. You could also do silly things on the calendar like doodle a picture of the baby with a speech mark saying 'don't go DD' or 'I'll miss you DD'. Also write in and plan some girlie time together

Also like the idea of saying that exDH must be confused instead of saying he's lied

From experience, it is horrendous for a child to have parents who don't live together, have different rules and who speak badly about the other parent.

So yes, if your daughter behaves badly, it should have consequences.

And yes, your daughter is in a very difficult position and needs some additional help with that. I think as a society, we underestimate how difficult it is for children to cope with situations like this.

I think putting what her dad said down to confusion is a good idea. She really needs to know she isn't being pushed out of your home to make way for younger siblings. She also needs to have at least one parent who isn't trash talking the other.

Another thing that occurs to me is this. Your daughter has boundaries at home, and if she behaves badly there are consequences. A lot has been said about the confusion that might arise for her because there are no boundaries/consequences at her father's home. Is there also the possibility that she sees him behaving badly (going to work whilst she is staying, talking badly about you etc) and there are no consequences for him?

I mention this because my father behaved very badly towards my mother (and myself) when I was child, and it really seemed to me like there were very few consequences for him. This made me feel incredibly insignificant i.e. when I am bad, I am punished, when he is bad to me, there are no consequences, that must mean it doesn't matter when someone is bad to me. I didn't consciously think that at a young age, but the seed was sown.

So I think it would help to try to think through the emotions that your daughter is going through from her point of view to a slightly greater extent. E.g. insecurity, fear, confusion, jealousy, anxiety, anger (possibly justified anger with her father for how he is behaving). And use that to inform how you moderate the things you have control over around her contact with her father.

My 8 year old would certainly go into meltdown at the idea that id sent him away because I was busy with his sister

I think you can and must scotch that idea with complete honesty. As others have said, maybe 'dad must have misunderstood because I would never' avoids bad mouthing him.

Clear notice of weekends so she knows that isn't true, but it strikes me she also needs a straightforward answer to 'why do I have to go to dads if he's working?'

Maybe explain that dad sometimes has to be at work, but that it's important to him that she is at his house and part of his life? Who looks after her when your ex is working and are you okay with that?

No,it's not emotional abuse but you do need to help her,clearly given the issues with her dad.

That said,there is no way a toddler would be wary of their sister for putting them on the top bunk and the toddler nearly falling,on their own,through their own behaviour.That's just crazy and it may be that you were projecting a bit which may be causing more discomfort

That said,I've just noticed she was crying for 45 minutes (older daughter) so I think you could have talked to her during that time,but each to their own.

Not abuse , but not appropriate either. Your toddler was not wary because she was nearly hurt I just don't believe that. I feel for your older dd being pushed out at bed time.

I would be honest about the whole situation, 8 year olds are not stupid....

say its difficult and you will all have to navigate it as best you can, adults are not perfect and say silly things, and sometimes want to hurt each other..but she is your absolute priority and her happiness and you want her to talk to you. Then love bomb her.

My older dd is similarly clumsy and silly round younger, they have no appreciation of danger yet, I was told its just 8 when road safety begins to kick in..children and young people are always courting danger, its us older people who can see into the future, a and e wait etc!!

Yes give her boundaries but be kind to her. this isnt an ideal situation for her to grow up in clearly. and she is struggling. this is a situation ultimalty you and your DH is responsible for.