to ask you if I emotionally abused my daughter last night?

[CloudiaPickle]

Dd is 8 and her father and I are separated and have been all her life. Shes always been different after contact because he has no rules, od derogatory about dh and I etc but I'd hoped I'd get better as she got older if I remained consistent with the boundaries at home.

However , this weekend has resulted in the worst behavior yet. In between contact shes usually polite, helpful, happy and a great big sister. She returned on Sunday afternoon and up until last might when things came to a head hardly spoke to dh and I other than to be argumentative/rude (I hated my packed lunch/advent calendar chocolate etc) Dh and I hadn't risen to the bait. She has been.ignoring everything and doing things she.knows she shouldn't so we have to.keep telling her off, she's been eye rolling, sighing dramatically, stomping and slamming around and shooting us filthy looks.

Within three space.of an hour last night she let go of her baby siblings pushchair when I.asked her to.hold it while.I.put the toddler in.the car and.it almost blew into the road. All she did was roll eyes at me when reprimanded. When home, she lifted her toddler sister into the top bunk where she knows she isn't allowed. I walked in to see toddler reaching over for a Christmas decoration and managed to catch her as she fell. Again, no regret or apology by dd just more rudeness.

Usually I read stories with all the dc but toddler dd was wary.of her sister because she.knew she had nearly been.badly hurt and because.of the moodiness and I thought dd needed an immediate consequence so I told her she was missing it and.going straight to bed. She was.screaming and wailing (extremely out of character) for at least 45 minutes. I explained that her behaviour had been disgusting and.I would not allow it to continue and affect her siblings too. I.told her I loved her and we would have a fresh start tomorrow. She stopped crying immediately when I.said that as she thought I was relenting about story time. When I said goodnight the wailing started again which tells me they were only tears of self pity and.to.get her way. There was still no apology or regret for her behaviour and.she still stomped.off to bed.

I spoke to my sister afterwards who said I effectively shut her out of the family last.night and was emotionally abusive :-/ what do you think?

(Sorry about the full.stops - phone is broken)

I actually think the loss of a story for nearly seriously hurting her baby sister is a weak consequence. Something like that would make zero difference in this house. I'm surprised a stroppy 8 year old was quite so bothered by this. I have a stroppy 6 year old so know where you coming from with the eye rolling and general moodiness but ours always gets worse towards the end of term.

It's not EA, it's called parenting. Your sister is probably ones of those who has or will have unruly children because she is incapable of saying no to her children. Children need boundaries and consequences to understand that some behaviour is not acceptable.

Well I'm an advocate of gentle parenting and avoiding punishments and rewards. And even for me it just looks like discipline and certainly not being emotionally abusive.

I actually think you have been very good dealing with her. I'm not sure I would have stayed as calm as you!

You weren't abusive in the slightest, I'm guessing your sister either doesn't have children or has children who are too young to misbehave yet!

I genuinely loathe how everything must be labelled 'abuse' these days. It makes it more difficult to distinguish when real abuse occurs. said Sprink

Hear hear - well said indeed.

Obviously she was feeling unsettled for some reason. Maybe I'm soft but I always think a little extra love and fuss to help reintegration into the family unit would smooth over these situations.

Also with an older child, it's easy to think of of them as being more mature and emotionally capable than they are. It's only when they grow up and you look back and see 8 years old as being little more than a baby.

I don't get this

"she stopped crying immediately when I.said that as she thought I was relenting about story time. When I said goodnight the wailing started again which tells me they were only tears of self pity and.to.get her way."

What does "only self pity" mean? I see this as being she was crying because she was upset at being excluded from the story. Then she thought she was back in the story and stopped. Then she realised that she was still missing the story, and started crying again. There isn't anything manipulative about this, she is just crying about missing the story, which upset her.

This all sounds very difficult but if you can find another way to discipline and follow through I would, because afterwards, when the dust has settled, using the story to settle down and change the mood would be a lovely way to end the day and let her go to sleep knowing she is loved. I think it is actually very sweet that missing the story upset her so much, it shows how much she values lovely cosy family time in the way that you facilitate that, and you should be pleased with that feeling and do everything you can to preserve it.

I think jumping to "is this abuse?" is setting up a straw man that lets you off the hook thinking about what you could have done differently. You could try to do something different next time without it being ABUSE and everyone going "er, no" is deflecting attention from that. I have this with DP. When I try to tell him I don't like something he says "I AM NOT SOME OGRE" and I'm like, where did the ogre come from? We aren't talking about whether you are an ogre, we are talking about this thing here.

No not abuse, but I feel a bit sorry for your dd
Is she the only child in the family with a different dad? How is your DH relationship with her? What did you do whilst she was at her dads?
She will pick up on your feelings towards her dad, your ex. How can that not make her feel a bit inferior? He's her father, but not a good parent from the sounds of it, and you obviously dislike him immensely.
She sounds jealous of her younger sibling (siblings? Is there more than one?) not surprised if this comes from something her father has said. Maybe when she comes back from her dads she feels like a spare part. 8 is very young, even though you probably see her as grown up. Have a good chat with her.

I disagree with most of the posters. Although it's not EA I think you've failed to acknowledge the difficulty she is having with the transition. At 8 years old she won't be able to express herself emotionally as well as an adult can. She is telling you in a way an 8 year old can by the behaviours you've described. She doesn't need punishment but a big cuddle and lots of understanding in what must be a very difficult time for her.

I agree with monkeyblue. I think the situation was dreadfully poorly handled (emotional abuse too strong a phrase though - poor parenting more apt). Sorry.

It was normal discipline.

It does sound as though she feels a bit jealous about her younger siblings. Something to think about.

I don't think transitioning from one environment to another is that hard for kids, even with different rules. They do it all the time. Home, school, brownies, football club, church, grandparents house, all different environments with different rules. Everyone transitions all the time, home, work, one social group, another social group, blah blah blah. It's part of life.

I know my ex stepsons were, bless them, totally wild and uncontrollable with suspected special needs and behavioural problems at home, but 100% fine with us and at nursery/school. Social services did an assessment of them at different places. Conclusion: Different environments, different rules, no problem adapting from one to another. Played merry hell in one environment because they could.

Stick to your guns with expecting correct behaviour.

I am kind of with the last 2 posters but not as far as your sister, you were definitely not emotional abusive IMO but what you have described, from my reading, is a wonderful obliging child who is struggling with the different parenting boundaries and probably the differences between herself and her siblings based on them being targets of her reaction. That can be down to age differences as well as family circumstances so I would consider it to be normal.

I think your consequences unintentionally only served to escalate the situation. I also imagine she did feel alienated. Definitely keep up the boundaries they are really important but allow for a transition time since you acknowledge she is getting mixed messages from the 2 people who matter most to her.

umm its a tricky one, and your sister will know more of the whole goings on than we do so I wouldnt write off what she said.

im my experience the people who usually play up you said your dd was good usually and bad when back from his....tells me something is upsetting her somewhere....telling her behaviour is bad is not tackling the cause if she is normally good I would be doing more work to try and discover what was bad...whats happening at your ex dh house...is she happy with new set up? etc etc etc..

i dont think your situation is clear cut.

monkeyblues I agree to a certain extend.
However, from someone who had to deal with unacceptable behaviour from of my dcs, behaviour stemming from outside influence so he needed the support and the cuddles, I can tell you what us the downside of not punishing at all. The other children around think that the dc is just getting away with it!

That's why I think the reaction if the OP was ok. Of course, as pp have said, the OP also need to support her dd and help her with the transition etc. but her dd and the other younger dcs also need to see visibly that bad behaviour isn't acceptable either.

I would also do more things with her alone, I have older child and toddler and realised only v recently I need to spend more alone time with older as I am stressed and pulled in two at the moment and its not fair on her...

I also have to repeat instructions a billions times like, stand by the car, right there, so I look away to get toddler out, look up and older one is not standing by car but twirling round in car park or something equally like that, so i have to say a billion trillion time, stand here, do not move I cannot look at toddler to get them out if I cant trust your standing still!!!

its maddening it really is, but seems veru common.

I don't think transitioning from one environment to another is that hard for kids, even with different rules.

totally disagree with this, and it depends on each specific circs, look at peaches geldoff when she spoke of no rules at her mums and draconian rules with her dad

I have read its confusing for dc if parents within a stable loving marriage have different parenting or views, let alone different families and houses!!!

impact of brownies compared to school is minimal compared to your mum and dad!!!!

Well her behaviour needed addressing first which op quite rightly did. Then she can sit down with dd and get to the root of the problem and how to deal with it. I woukd be tempted to phone if contact ex, along the lines of dd came home from yours, she was not her usual bright bubbly self, how did contact go at the weekend?

I don't think transitioning from one environment to another is that hard for kids, even with different rules

There's quite a bit of professional guidance for split families that makes reference to transitional difficulties and anxiety, and the OPs description of her DCs behaviour certainly matches the descriptions given.

I posted a link upthread which suggests that simple things like having a set routine/ritual when the child rejoins a family after time with another parent can help - it can be something simple like the OP and her DD reading a book together, or making the lunches for school the next day - the important thing is that it is predictable and regular, so the DC can anticipate it.

She's obviously having trouble coping either with the transition or switch in rules between you and her dad. Or maybe something else is going on at his house. The point is, children are bad at containing their emotions, and will deal with them in the only way they know how.

In the mean time, she needs to know her behavior is absolutely unacceptable.

You did nothing wrong. If she can't behave herself, she needs to be separated. Cutting her slack because she's going through a hard time will do her no favors.

Can you get her to a counselor so she can talk about her feelings and how the separation is affecting her? It's better to learn how to deal with it now than be dysfunctional because of it later.

Lovey you gave her a good old fashioned telling off stop analysis ing it she was naughty

You were absolutely right.

I have the same issue when my DD (aged 7) returns from her Dad's house.

You need to make it very clear that she is not in charge in your house and you will NOT stand for that kind of behaviour.

Stick to your guns OP.

I think eight is still quite little and you shouldn't be relying on her to look after or be responsible for her younger siblings. There is only a two and a half year gap between my children, and the oldest is a boy! So I have never really expected one of my children to be responsible for the other.

No, I wouldn't call it emotional abuse. However, it sounds as though there is much more going on than just a child misbehaving. The transition from one house to another seems difficult for her, probably not due to differences in rules (children can easily understand that some things are allowed in one setting but not in another) but to the complicated emotions that are raised for her by spending time with her father. If her dad says negative things to her about you, she is likely caught in an impossible place of conflicted loyalties. She may also feel a bit like the odd one out when she returns home, the only one who has a different father, who spends time away from the rest of the family. She probably seems extremely mature and self-sufficient in comparison to her younger siblings, but she's just a little girl coping with some big emotions (which she probably cannot even name, let alone manage without help).

Does she have a strong relationship with her stepfather? How long has he been in her life?

The fact that she reacted so strongly to losing a bedtime story means something too. I wouldn't ascribe anything negative or manipulative to her reaction, though. On the contrary, she was showing she needed you to pay attention to her emotional state, and she needed to feel part of the family. Of course, that doesn't mean you should ignore her misbehaviour. She was behaving unacceptably and she needs to know that. But punishment can be counterproductive in situations like this and can backfire spectacularly IMO.

Not emotional abuse but sounds like attention seeking behaviour. Maybe because her siblings have their dad at home (and he's better than hers?).

She needed consequences. Maybe next time you can say "if this behaviour continues you'll miss story time again tonight. If you stop, behave like the mature 8yo I know you are and help me you can have a extra half hour tonight just you she me".

So she gets the attention she wants/needs but for good behaviour.

I don't think once is abuse no. That's discipline.

If I were making a suggestion I would work out a few 'reprimands' to alternate so that one isn't over used or relied on and also so dd is kept on her toes. I might also change them regularly.

But that's easy for an outsider to say and bloody hard to do in the thick of it.

Well I think you should have given a warning tbh. But not emotional abuse.

But can I question why you are not responsible for your own toddler? I managed to put my ds in the car a zillion times without someone holding the pram - and I never left him alone in a room, especially one with a bunk bed.

I guess 8 years old is grown up. But it does seem like you expect her to help you parent. I think I'd roll my eyes at that tbh.