to ask you if I emotionally abused my daughter last night?

[CloudiaPickle]

Dd is 8 and her father and I are separated and have been all her life. Shes always been different after contact because he has no rules, od derogatory about dh and I etc but I'd hoped I'd get better as she got older if I remained consistent with the boundaries at home.

However , this weekend has resulted in the worst behavior yet. In between contact shes usually polite, helpful, happy and a great big sister. She returned on Sunday afternoon and up until last might when things came to a head hardly spoke to dh and I other than to be argumentative/rude (I hated my packed lunch/advent calendar chocolate etc) Dh and I hadn't risen to the bait. She has been.ignoring everything and doing things she.knows she shouldn't so we have to.keep telling her off, she's been eye rolling, sighing dramatically, stomping and slamming around and shooting us filthy looks.

Within three space.of an hour last night she let go of her baby siblings pushchair when I.asked her to.hold it while.I.put the toddler in.the car and.it almost blew into the road. All she did was roll eyes at me when reprimanded. When home, she lifted her toddler sister into the top bunk where she knows she isn't allowed. I walked in to see toddler reaching over for a Christmas decoration and managed to catch her as she fell. Again, no regret or apology by dd just more rudeness.

Usually I read stories with all the dc but toddler dd was wary.of her sister because she.knew she had nearly been.badly hurt and because.of the moodiness and I thought dd needed an immediate consequence so I told her she was missing it and.going straight to bed. She was.screaming and wailing (extremely out of character) for at least 45 minutes. I explained that her behaviour had been disgusting and.I would not allow it to continue and affect her siblings too. I.told her I loved her and we would have a fresh start tomorrow. She stopped crying immediately when I.said that as she thought I was relenting about story time. When I said goodnight the wailing started again which tells me they were only tears of self pity and.to.get her way. There was still no apology or regret for her behaviour and.she still stomped.off to bed.

I spoke to my sister afterwards who said I effectively shut her out of the family last.night and was emotionally abusive :-/ what do you think?

(Sorry about the full.stops - phone is broken)

Also, I'm surprised at a toddler having the though process to be wary if her sister because 'she realised she was nearly badly hurt'?

Small children don't think like that. If she was wary if her sister it was more likely it was because you shouting at her sister frightened her.

It might be worth thinking about whether you need to reassess your 'shouting' voice.

My Older DD (also 8) is an eye rolling madam (especially after contact). She is quite needy for her age and sometimes I even feel guilt it is as a result of the divorce. But, I don't give her an easy ride when her behaviour crosses a line. Unacceptable is just that. She is loved, it is demonstrated. I am dreading teenage years with her current level of self involvement. But it is her my younger DD has always been more independent and doesn't take the drama to quite the same level (even when i consider age). They both 'push' more after contact. It's disruptive but they know any kind of playing me off against their dad is ineffective.

As the mother of a 9 year old girl I would second the opinion that the behaviour may not be purely down to her visits with her father.

My daughter (and many of her classmates from talking to their mums) has behaved in a similar manner with the eye rolls, the wailing over reaction and sometimes general grumpiness.

I've noticed it tends to be towards the end of term but it has been particularly bad after a sleep over at friends.

You say her father has no rules - is she actually getting enough sleep?

Hmm. I think it is everything to do with transition from contact. She is away from her usual family unit in a place which is not as secure, and chaotic. She comes home cross and confused, acts out against the only thing she probably feels she has control of - those younger than her who have been safely at home all weekend - and is punished for not being a good big sister. She has only been alive for 8 years. That's lot of emotional processing for a little brain to do. Disipline her sure, but cut her some slack as well. She is dealing with frequent emotional change and most adults would struggle with that. No point blaming anyone, just try and figure a way to negotiate it for everyone.

Sounds like a reasonable punishment given with a rational explanation - far, far from emotional abuse.

She probably does find the transition from one house to another difficult but that doesn't excuse deliberate acts of defiance, particularly if no remorse is shown.

Toddler dd was wary.of her sister because she.knew she had nearly been.badly hurt

Sorry but I'm going against the grain. And I dont think most toddlers would connect that.

Your actions were fine.

But as it was particularly out of character I'd sit down & talk to get today about her last visit to her dad's - or at least give her the opportunity to tell you why she was upset (if there was a reason it might just be end of term itis tipping the balance)

No, you cannot ignore that sort of behaviour and she has to understand that it is unacceptable.

Just a thought - your daughter may be desperate to feel special and to have some one-to-one. It sounds as though she is really jealous of the younger siblings. Any chance you could read with her one to one and make a special time in the day just for her?

The other thing to explore is how things are for her at school. Perhaps worth asking the teacher if she has noticed any behavioural changes there? For her behaviour to change so suddenly is odd. There may be other things going on with her and she is kicking out at those she loves most.

I don't think this was abuse and you used discipline correctly, but girls this age with separated parents need to feel special.
I have a nearly 11 year old DD and have been separated from her Dad for three years. He did verbally abuse her (another thread), but what I have found is that on return from contact with him she desperately needed one to one attention.

Whilst in many respects she is a lot more mature than her peers in others she still needs the support of a much younger child.

I spend a considerable amount of time just talking to and listening to her without other distractions. It is a hard balance to achieve, but it is worth it.
On return from contact I wouldn't ask her to be responsible for anything as her Dad's totally lawless society means she has had to consider all the risks herself and she is exhausted by this.

No, definitely not emotional abuse but I agree with those who say that you need to help her manage her emtions in a better way. I was that child, very well behaved all of the time, except when I returned from a day with my father and then I was a demon. I lashed out and pushed every boundary. I needed love, not punishment even when I was behaving in a way that deserved punishment. Children need your hugs the most when they deserve them the least.

I think you did exactly the right thing OP. By standing your ground and setting boundaries, you're making your dd feel very secure and safeguarded. It's lax discipline (or none at all) which is bad for a child's stability and well-being. Deep down I expect your dd is glad that somebody responsible cares enough to help her control her moods and behaviour.

This modern tendency to label the least little discipline as 'abuse' is so silly. You can't raise a child by letting them do whatever they please. That isn't healthy for them. They must learn about consequences for their actions. It's how adult society works after all. Otherwise you'd have anarchy.

I'm wondering just what goes on at her father's when she's there.

Its hard when there are rules in different homes. Dc1 has the same set up and finds the transition hard. Its not so easy to make this right. You are doing the best you can, op

I don't think you were abusive, but I also don't think your toddler was then 'wary' of her sister, I think she was more likely upset by the atmosphere.

That said, I think there's obviously an issue with contact, as you've identified, and it's probably worth doing some work with DD to make a plan to help those transitions. I think if I'd spent the weekend somewhere that isn't very nice, then came back home where everyone had a lovely cosy time, I probably wouldn't be on my best behaviour either.

It seems pretty clear she spent the whole day trying to provoke a reaction, which she eventually got. It's hard to remember this all the time, but children really don't distinguish between bad and good attention - it's all just attention to them.

Can you think of some sort of transition ritual which will help her settle back into home life more quickly? Even if it's just an uninterrupted special hot chocolate in a special mug, just with mum, to catch up for 15 minutes when she gets back in? And name it - make it really clear that's what you're doing. 'DD I notice when you come back from dad's you've really missed everyone, so I think in future me and you are going to just sit quietly and have a welcome home drink, and we can fill each other in on what's been happening.'

Your not, your ex is.

It's quite obvious he said something horrible to her like "your mummy prefers her new baby now and doesn't want you" and she's stewed on it.

Be gentle when you try to find out what he's done.

Poor kid obviously but also poor you

Fair and appropriate discipline it sounded like to me.

It's only emotional abuse if someone is deliberately abusing.
A loving parent making a mistake with discipline (which you didn't, by the way) is not an abuser.

Yes her behaviour needed disciplining. She needs to know it was her bad behaviour and not she as a person that was being disciplined. Agree with LonnyVonny about having a chat with Dd once she is back after visits. We know it is hard but she is lucky to have you to give her the space to analyse her feelings. Listen to your sister as knowingly or unknowingly she will help you address issues before they get out of hand.

Nope. Sounds like perfectly reasonable discipline. Don't fret.

I agree the child needs to be treated like a child and not put in charge of her younger siblings, of whom she is very clearly jealous.

It was discipline. I think the fact that you are even worrying that you emotionally abused her shows that you are a caring parent who is sensitive to the feelings of your child and are concerned she feels loved and secure.

I think you are doing the right thing by demonstrating that when she comes back to you there are rules and boundaries in place and certain standards of behaviour are expected.

One word of caution though. Whatever happens at her Dad's isn't her fault. Please don't let her pick up on the fact that you think she behaves differently when she comes back. It must be difficult for her sometimes to feel she has to leave you all and also torn because she may want to spend time with her Dad but find it difficult to leave you at the same time. If she feels she is being told that she comes back 'bad' it is going to make her feel even more different from the rest of you and unsettled by the time away. Keep on doing what you're doing, reinforcing boundaries and rules, but don't let her pick up on the fact you think there is a problem while you were away.

Incidentally I was quite badly emotionally abused as a child and I don't think it would ever have occurred to my Mum to worry about how it affected me or how I felt. It bought a little tear to my eye that you were so worried. You sound like a lovely caring Mum.

While 'she' was away. Duh.

No not emotional abuse. This was DD unsettled after the visit to her Dad's and unfortunately you DH and little sister got the brunt of it. She was letting off steam and you resisted rising to the bait. A quiet word with her at bedtime without an audience or extra drama sounds sensible to me. Her aunty should appreciate that DD1 needs to remember our actions have consequences.

under normal circumstances I would say it sounds completely justified discipline. however, I think considering the fact that you know she is struggling to adjust to the differences between the 2 homes you might need to look for a different approach although not sure what that would be!

we have the opposite issue in so much as we have rules, boundaries and consequences for poor behaviour here but dp is the nrp and at their mum's the dsc get zero discipline etx as mum firmly believe kids shouldn't be told no.

unfortunately there is very little you can do other than find a way to manage your dd's anxiety and stress around the situation. I would perhaps implement a time period of ignoring her behaviour when she gets back from her dad's. maybe explain that now she is home she has to remember that the rules are different at home so she has x amount of time to adjust and then you expect her behaviour to be in line with expectations at home. don't comment negatively about her dad having no boundaries etc, just explain to her that different rules exist in different houses same as there are different rules at school or clubs she attends. hopefully over time she will learn to deal with it better but she is still very young.