AIBU to think vile people aren't born that way?

[Mollymoofer]

It's a conundrum, isn't it? I know someone who is causing so much damage to their family, children especially, but I know private things about their childhood that must have damaged them big style.

I've been accused in the past of being a bleeding hearted liberal.

AIBU to think if someone goes through life with no regard for others, it's because they've learned that from others at an early age?

Of course, Raffe, which somewhat proves the importance of nurture.

I agree with Terry. I stopped attending AA as some people did my nut in. "I picked up the bottle because my mum is ill, I picked up the bottle because I rowed with my GF".
No you picked up the bottle because you are an alcoholic. Your illness, no-one to blame but you.

Yes, Terry and another study found a higher incidence of psychopathic traits among CEOs than in the prison population.

Another observational study found the highest incidence in FT readers and lowest for Guardian readers, but that was based on self-reporting so probably not too reliable.

As are a disproportionately high number of blue-chip CEOs apparently. And that according to the American professor researching into psychopathology who discovered by chance that he scored extremely highly in all the tests himself! Forget his name but has been on R4, TEDtalks discussing all this. His view (simplified) was that his nurturing environment saved him.

I know the guy you mean Dogs but cannot remember his name either. He was on the TV show Most Evil explaining it all. A very clever man.

I agree Dogs that nuture is likely to be the most important factor, but genetics does play a small part.
Either way when you are an adult you are responsible for your own actions. A poor childhood is no excuse and given my upbringing it annoys me when people try to use it.

The vast majority of people with psychopathic tendancies (as someone said above, on a spectrum) are actually "normal". Some successful. Most far from being abusive. It is a misused term.

I think nature vs nurture is an interesting debate as far as what nurture can do to nature. Ie you can be born with tendancies (nature) which can be nurtured into a myriad of different outcomes. Better or worse.

Interesting subject so marking place to see what others say.

In any case I don't think people are born vile. They are born with a predisposition to behave in certain ways, but nurture can help them develop or hinder that.

No-one can say, I am a cunt because I was born that way. But I also think that no-one can say I am a cunt because I was made that way. Accountability for one's behaviour comes with growing up. Learning that some things just aren't acceptable.

I like to think of it this way. There is a pie. Each person's genes mean that they have a slice of pie. Someone naturally high on the psychoticism scale would have that slice. Nurture then kicks in and decides which smaller bit of pie they get. The healthy families get the CEOs and Firefighters and the less healthy ones get the Donald Trumps and murderers. Then the child themselves, with their choices and decisions gets to chose the bite they take.

When I write a book it will be The Pie Theorem.

A pie's a good analogy, MrsTP, should sell well!

When I write a book it will be called Who Ate All The Pies.

That's the sequel, raltheraffe.

I think I can come off a bit cuntishly because of some defense mechanisms I developed as a child. For example, any weakness in my family was exploited mercilessly so I am often at pains to disguise anything that could be interpreted as weakness. This means I am a bit of a twat at times, in social situations. Obviously I realise that this is not normal or correct but part of my background is that I've absolutely internalized that I am particularly and unbearably 'bad' so while it's true others can be acceptable with their flaws, my own are such that they make me intolerable to others. Now, I can rationalise the shit out of this, and in some situations can even stop myself from going into full-on twat mode, but if I'm stressed I sort of shut down and go into auto mode. I try to practice mindfulness and have had lots of therapy, but can't change the basic, default mode that I act as if these things are true even if I know they probably aren't. My whole personality and pattern of managing has developed around this world view. It's honest to God not as simple as saying, take responsibility! I have and continue to do so but you're asking me to restructure my actual brain tissue, which is fucking tricky, to say the least.

Yy to the psychopaths only turn into the 'monster' of folklore in the context of an uncaring or harsh environment. I remember also reading that 100% of known serial killers were beaten as children.

My upbringing can make me sensitive but if I ever feel like I am about to say something nasty I verbally disengage and try to remove myself from the situation.

YANBU, OP. Spurious neuropsychobabble aside, it's ridiculous that people think that a child's behaviour is entirely the responsibility of their parents, but once that same child passes an arbitrary chronological age, the parents/society have nothing to do with it any more. Either environment influences behaviour (duh) or it doesn't (ffs), it doesn't magically stop at some random point in development and leave the brain as a blank canvas for people to design at will.

Of course in an ideal world no one would be nasty, but in reality most people are nasty in some ways, and most to a similar extent but with greater or lesser ability to hide it or pass it off as socially acceptable 'venting'/'stating opinion'/'being forthright' or whatever wanky terminology they choose to cover themselves with. The people who are more vulnerable, due to circumstances or biology, tend to be the ones labelled as 'vile' because they are less able to make sure their picking on others is not only directed at those too weak to complain- they are 'vile' to people higher up the hierarchy and are thus noticed rather than allowed to get on with it. It's like monkeys but with words instead of biting/grooming/shit throwing.

Of course in this specific case the guy is picking on people lower in social status than himself (ex, a mother, female, so considered by most to be culpable for everything, and children, who will be ignored if they complain)- it's just chance that you've noticed it in this instance so he hasn't got away with it, and it seems like he manages to disguise this from most other people. I would if I were you tell his ex or his children that you are there to support if they need it- not much else you can do, and based on my experience with ex who attributed (possibly fairly, I don't really care) his behaviour to his mother's abusiveness (of course his neglectful father was off the hook entirely), there is fuck all point discussing it with the guy who is being vile, because he isn't going to listen or change, having 'lost neural plasticity' or whatever bollocks. The best thing would be for him only to be around people who are higher in status than him so he doesn't feel safe to exhibit aggressive behaviour, that's about all that can work.

Am still eaiting for neuroplasticity to kick in. I need to be. More elastic. Got stuck unconsciously perpetuating a few somewhat destructive intergenerational patterns of behaviour. Now am concious of them but they are still my default. Hard to break away totally.

It's not simply about status. Some people, regardless of their status, won't accept cuntish behaviour. Part of it is also being able to get away with it.

Outs, I empathise. I have little patience with people proclaiming that anyone can be a 'normal', kind, balanced & reasonable human being regardless of any excuse their childhood gave them. It's a fucking long haul and very unpleasant in parts. When the schemas that were ingrained in you growing up were dysfunctional ones, you can't pop into a Psyche Shop and buy a nice new one. You have to fucking break down the old psyche, then get to work building a new one. And you have to choose this, then stick with it - I'm not surprised most don't bother.

As I've said, reasons aren't excuses. But the reasons exist. The common assumption that damaged people can just 'choose to be nice' proves how deeply ingrained childhood schemas are - functional people, from functional backgrounds, can't actually imagine what goes on inside less functional minds & hearts.

Ral, your AA group was shit! If it was any good, those weaselly statements would have been called out every single time.

YANBU, OP. Spurious neuropsychobabble aside, it's ridiculous that people think that a child's behaviour is entirely the responsibility of their parents, but once that same child passes an arbitrary chronological age, the parents/society have nothing to do with it any more.

I do not think anyone said that. Environment and genetics both play a part to a differing degree depending on what specific factor is being referred to. It is likely environment plays a greater part but apart from limited studies of MZ, DZ and twin separation studies it is impossible to quantify.

Also when people refer to environment that refers to far more than just the parents.

Husband still goes, I am sober despite not going. I renamed it WW for whinging winos.

To be fair there are some really decent people who go but the whingers are in the majority and I got sick of hearing it.

People aren't born psychopaths. My understanding was that although they are born with neurological differences which can develop into psychopathy it wouldn't always develop in all people with these differences and it normally needs something environmental in addition to trigger it.

Siblings having 'the same' upbringing is irrelevant as no two siblings have identical experiences.

I'm not so sure we can call fire fighters psychopaths. Psychopaths normally take calculated risks, fires are anything but predictable. They would act in their own best interests. I'm not sure we could classify a fire fighter as doing that. Policemen I can definitely see, but I don't see fire fighters.

I do know that some surgeons have this trait, and this is a good thing. I don't want someone that's operating on me to get emotional when making a decision based on body mechanics.

Ca I give my favourite example from childhood? I know we're somewhat off-topic, OP, sorry.
When small, my brother and I discovered the interesting pastime of pulling the legs off frogs. An adult came by and explained why we shouldn't do that. Brother and I listened carefully. I never pulled another leg off a frog again. As soon as the adult had turned away, my brother resumed.
He's now extremely successful in international business.

What an interesting thread!

I'm sick to death of the crappy childhood excuse. There's plenty of people that were abused and turned out to be decent and loving people.

Indeed there is but they are the lucky ones with good genes.

I went to an amazing conference some years back organised by the fantastic Camilla Batmanghelich of Kids Company. It was about the development of the brain in abused and neglected children.

One fascinating presentation was about how siblings who both suffered the same abuse from parents turned out differently. One would go on to repeat the same behaviours in adulthood (cruelty, neglect, substance misuse, worklessness, violence etc.) and the other would completely reject this life and over-achieve / compensate for their awful childhood.

In the study they found genetic similarities between the children who were affected more negatively - they were simply born less resilient than their siblings.

So the "crappy childhood" is not an excuse any more than if your brother was born with red hair, it's not your fault that you were born with brown hair.

Some images to ponder...