AIBU to think vile people aren't born that way?

[Mollymoofer]

It's a conundrum, isn't it? I know someone who is causing so much damage to their family, children especially, but I know private things about their childhood that must have damaged them big style.

I've been accused in the past of being a bleeding hearted liberal.

AIBU to think if someone goes through life with no regard for others, it's because they've learned that from others at an early age?

And in nature vs nurture. Nurture does a lot as can situations such as trauma and PTSD but there have been cases where things like brain damage or malformation with empathy associated areas not forming contributing too.

Some ppeople like hurting or controlling others. Sometimes there seems no explanation and sometimes they enjoy. I know someone who abused her partner, only ever one and when asked why she said 'because he let me.' she took trust and spat on it because she could, that person thought the best of her while others didn't see the best and ran. Truth is she liked having thatr and I noticed her doing it more ssubtlety to friends and family.

Yes, I think it's definitely worth remembering plenty of people survive awful childhoods and don't go on to perpetuate the abuse. I haven't spoken to him although I've been very close to doing so. His wife advised me not to. Her exact words: don't put yourself through that. And I know what she means - he's a piece of work. If I did speak to him I would be totally upfront with him and tell him I think he needs to deal with these childhood issues.

I can't get my head round someone who hurts people just because they can.

I think theres a lot more sociopaths than pyschopaths. More than we realize.

I'd imagine that if you spoke to him, he'd do one of two things, deny it, make light of it and pretend that it was all your misunderstanding, or turn his abuse on to you. My problem with confronting an emotional abuser (a physical one you can report) but, an emotional one, is, that you can't force a nasty person to be nicer. You can tell them that they're not very nice. But, in the break up of a marriage, they'll probably have factored in a number of the ex-wife's friends' opinions anyway.

I'm the type who tends to speak my mind. But, I wouldn't necessarily recommend doing that as a lifestyle choice. But, I can't help myself and it makes me feel better afterwards.

I think the whole 'lots of people are abused and don't perpetuate it' thing is a bit glib tbh.
People who have been abused may well not perpetuate the same level of abuse but are likely to exhibit copied behaviours which may in turn damage their children. And often it's not obvious to outsiders.
For example, my parents appear 'naice' and I wasnt abused as a child anywhere nearly as badly as either of them were - but did I suffer at their hands? Yes, yes, yes. And I do believed it damaged me permanently although I try really hard not to exhibit too many of their behaviours. I can only hope that my children are a little less damaged than I was and it get better through the generations.
And it is hard - really really hard - not to be a controlling person when you had an unsafe childhood. I struggle every day, trying not to want to be in control of DH and his actions because I still live with the irrational fear of suddenly finding myself abandoned, although it would be impossible for him to do that to me now, as a grown adult, in the way I'm afraid of.
None of this excuses his actions though, he still has a choice in how to behave even if his choices are much harder to make and stick to than other peoples.

What it also interesting to consider is are there vile children? When does it start?
I've had opportunity to work closely with a number of children over the last couple of years and it's been a real eye opener. Between the ages of about 3 and 4, they tend not to have what I would describe as deliberate nastiness. Then from about 5 onwards, there have been a few who seem to get pleasure from upsetting others. I have one 9yo at the moment who I would struggle to describe as anything other than a nasty piece of work.
Had you told me this a few years ago, if not have believed it possible. Now I'm utterly confused!

So your friend has abused his wife and is currently abusing his children and nobody has pointed this out to him?

Fantastic posts above, and I have little to add - well, not without writing an essay & inviting PP to contribute theirs

I agree strongly with you, Pomeral, that the 'lots of people are abused and don't perpetuate it' thing is a bit glib. I perpetuated it by being a fantastic victim - and was also manipulative, for reasons you've outlined. I don't think I'll ever be completely free; staying conscious of your emotional responses all the time is hard work.

Molly, the wife being 'worn down over the years', and him being charming, are indicators of what you're really seeing as addicted says. And she even warned you, bless her! My advice would be to distance yourself from him emotionally. He may well be lining you up as a target. In any case, you cannot change him (or anyone else.)

Approx 1% of people in our society are psychopaths. About 10% are sociopaths: users with a fundamental incapacity for empathy. Then there are the almost-sociopathic, the damaged & injured, and the unwell. If you know 100 people, chances are about 15 of them are sociopathic enough to trigger an alarm. I would say to him that I disliked what he's doing, and that I felt he was hurting his own children unnecessarily. Then I'd remove myself from his orbit. But that's just me; it sometimes has unpleasant repercussions. I think you should align yourself with DH, for your own well-being, and support his wife as far as you safely can do.

Thanks everyone, really great responses. I take the 'glib' point on board. That makes it actually easier to distance myself from him actually. It's the idea of him as a victim that makes me want to talk to him but really I don't think anything I say will make a difference. There was a very bad incident with their child last night and I haven't heard yet what the fall out from it is. I hope it means social services will take more of an interest.

Poor kids :( Must be very upsetting to watch. I can understand your wanting to 'do something' but maybe that means just being there for his wife now and again ...

Yep. The youngest was left stranded in the playground at pick up today. No dad, no after-school club organised. No doubt the dad will find a way to blame the mum for this, even though, at his insistence, the DC are his responsibility through the week.

I'm settled on not going to see him though. Thanks for helping me get my thoughts in order.

People are different, even growing up in the same environment can have opposite effects on people.

'Course YANBU! Nurture mostly does it.

OK... So if psychopathy is genetic then it can be inherited. If you are a pyscopathic parent you are likely to abuse baby with psychopathic tendencies, thus exacerbating condition.

Research about personality and the interaction between nature and nurture is still ongoing so anyone saying they 'know' is wrong. People saying that people 'have the same upbringing and turn out different' may be interested in recent (ish) research.

Some youth appear to be more 'plastic' than others. So, rather than kids being good or bad, or made good or made bad, some are more affected by circumstances as well. They will be much more affected by an abusive family as well as by a nurturing family. Some children will stay basically the same, regardless of family. If a 'plastic' child is moved from an abusive family to a nurturing family they will change, in both the abusive family and the nurturing family. A less 'plastic' child will stay the way they are in both scenarios.

What this means for SW and parenting is slightly worrying...

I'm sick to death of the crappy childhood excuse. There's plenty of people that were abused and turned out to be decent and loving people.

You are a product of your parents until you become an adult and get away (and even then if you choose not to it's on you). At that point you are fully responsible for making your own decisions and turning your life around, and that includes getting therapy if you are having a hard time doing it on your own. Knowing someone was abused or traumatized does not make them more pleasant to be around, nor does it make me more tolerant of their bullshit.

It's a conscious choice how you act. You can choose to be nice to a person, or you can choose to be miserable to those around you.

If I did speak to him I would be totally upfront with him and tell him I think he needs to deal with these childhood issues.

Eh... I'd be careful on that one. Being told you have issues doesn't go over well with most people. Just tell him you disagree and cut him from your circle.

I used to teach and research neuroscience. Unfortunately it is impossible to design an experiment to say a person's behaviour is, for example 45% genes and 55% environment.
My paternal granddad and my father are both sociopaths. That had a devastating affect on my upbringing, but thankfully I am not a sociopath.
I had an appalling childhood and when I was diagnosed bipolar in my early twenties the abuse from both my parents escalated to the point of them swindling me out my life savings and leaving me homeless.
However I do not hit people or verbally abuse people. Just because it happened to me does not give me carte blanche to treat others badly. If anything it has made me far more aware of the impact violence and verbal abuse can cause and so made me more resolute not to act that way.
Ultimately when someone is an adult, they should behave in a respectful manner towards others. A poor childhood is no excuse.

It's nurture.

When babies aren't cuddled a part of their brain doesn't develop. Remember the Romanian orphans?

I'm also fed up with the 'childhood' excuse. Yes childhood does affect everyone to some extent, but fundamentally the way people are doesn't change much. I'm sure it keeps many naive idealistic hearts warm to think everyone is born the same and has the some potential to be a wonderful kind and sharing human being but they just aren't. The world doesn't have to be fair or give everyone the same potential. People are different.

Jeez, and i thought i was such a pessimist! I genuinely believe that we are all born more or the less the same as innocents, abolutely. Bar a few genetically-induced exceptions such as psychopathy

Psychopathy is not a discrete entity it is a spectrum disorder. Compare it to people being fat. The medical difference between someone clinically overweight and clinically obese is just an arbitrary cut off based on BMI. The same is true of most personality disorders, psychopathy being one of them.
Genetics and environment both play a part but it is impossible to design an experiment which quantifies the split. There have been some studies of twins separated at birth (bit like DeVito and Arnie) but this is limited by a small data set.

It does make me laugh when people think 'I reckon' is interchangeable with 'scientific fact'.

Nature has a role in terms of basic personality, some predisposition to certain conditions and behaviours. Nurture has a role, in terms of bonding, language development and so on. The intersection has a role in terms of triggering certain behaviours and conditions. Things like epigenetics (complex intersaction between genetics and environment) have a role. The age things happen, how they happen, what precedes and antecedes them matter. People are complicated.

The 'excuse' of childhood trauma fills our rehabs. A combination of genetic predisposition, availabilty of drugs and alcohol and trauma combine to make an addicted person. It's not as simple as saying, "it's this".

Also only a tiny minority of psychopaths are axe wielding criminals. Donald Trump and Winston Churchill are both examples of successful psychopaths.

Aren't firefighters normally really high on psychopathy tests? And racing drivers...