too think this is a bit mean of the teacher?

[ChoochiWoo]

My 5 year old ds been FT since September, he has ASD struggles with literacy his strength is numeracy. He told me in tge bath earlier that he had been denied playtime because he couldnt write about his school trip he actually said he only thought of a few words. I am probably going to enquire as to how whole that version of events is asap with his teacher, but as parents of children on the spectrum know ..lying isn't really there thing. He can't lie for toffee..he was looking down and talking in a sullen way, I hope theres more to this...seems a well, mean punitive action to such a young child. I spent a lot of time in half term doing book activities he writes his name confidentally now, when before you couldn't get him to write a card. Whats MN verdict on this one? Would this happen in f2?

Apologies for spelling mistakes

My 5 year old DS doesn't have ASD and wouldn't be able to write about a school trip at all. I think he'd get about 5 words, all spelt wrong, in a really bad scrawl - he's summer born so is in Yr 1.

There must be something else going on, but either way he's unhappy, you need to find out what is happening.

Hmmm my DH is of the impression , and I that it doesn't seem quite right although ds certainty seems to believe whats hes saying.

You need to fin out more. Even if this is not entirely what happened, its what he thinks happened (punished for not writing enough) and that sounds pretty mean to me.

I think if you're concerned you need to find out what really happened.

It depends entirely on the exact circumstances. If he was offered appropriate help but refused to try or engage then it's a fair enough consequence. For example, a child I work with (also ASD) would quite often refuse to even write his name- something which we know he can do- or talk to me so I can scribe ideas for him. He'll just say 'I don't want to'. So we do sometimes resort to 'you do it now, or you do it at playtime'. 9/10 it works and he gets on with the work- but the 1/10 it doesn't we have to follow through.

If he genuinely couldn't do the work and wasn't offered help then I agree it was wrong of the teacher.

What would you suggest the teacher do instead? The child I referred to above, his parents are in full agreement. If they weren't, or they had a better idea, then of course we'd listen to them.

I think there must be more to it. Maybe he thought it was because of not writing about the trip, but actually something else. I would have a word with the teacher and get the other side of the story. Not to say that your DS is lying, but maybe he didn't understand fully why he was kept in and assumed it was because of his writing. Hope it's sorted out quickly tomorrow, it's not nice when they come home upset.

Yeah I will be asking when I next see teacher, in a non screechy way...im anxious of being seen as one of those mums but feel sad for ds aswell.

I don't think removing a 5yo's playtime is ever a good strategy, TBH.

Chronucally...in that case I would say fair enough, he said he'd "done some words" whether thats spoken or written im not sure.

They will probably tell you it was an "opportunity" and not punishment.

They pulled the same crap with ds1 when he was seven.

However. Be aware that this may not be the whole story ....

I see trollsworth, did you pull them up on it, im hoping theres a chunk I've not heard, I mean I don't want to hear hes been difficult in any way but it would fit the punishment.

Ds will be off today due to sicky virus, would I be a major pfb to ring up and ask or just leave it ?

Leave it, it's a chat at school thing at this stage because you only have one side to it. The chances are that he was kept in because he didn't finish - as a result of messing about/not concentrating or missed a few minutes because the teacher wanted him to get something on paper. Obviously, if it turns out she has been overly harsh, you can take a more official stance but at this stage you are just information gathering.

It doesn't matter if he 'is able' to do it, there may be environmental or sensory reasons why that particular time he didn't do it. Quite often children on the spectrum are quite happy to do something one time and point blank refuse another. There may be a number of reasons why this is happening. The teacher's job is to find out those reasons in order to motivate him next time. Missing playtime is never going to encourage a child to enjoy writing. It may get the job done but at 5 years old, it will only encourage future reluctance and see writing as a chore.
And please do not be afraid of being one of those parents- coming from a teacher and a parent of an ASD child. Your child is your number one priority, not your reputation among school staff.

I'd leave it and speak to the teacher in person, although that said my dd (also asd) has been physically sick due to stressing about school before now so I would ring and speak to them if I wasnt 100% sure that it was a virus just so that I could clear up the misunderstanding with the teacher and elevate whatever she was panicking about, her teacher would be understanding of this though as she has gad too.

Just go and talk to the teacher. Don't rely on the word of a five year old as to what may or may not have happened. I'm not saying that your child is lying, just that the perspective of a young child is very different to that of an adult. In 99% of cases, there will be a perfectly reasonable explanation.

It is worth remembering that a teacher doesn't like giving up recess and lunch times for punitive punishments. If they do, they don't get a break at all. I have however stayed through break to help out a student, but never as a punishment, just a 'would you like to stay with me to keep working on this?' when a child may need a bit of one on one without the rest of the class around.

Toomuchcantbreathe....Y, Y thats my thought entirely , he'll just think ...."well if I try I still get punished " and be more difficult next time. ....if this all happened ,more clarity now, he wrote only 2 words 'worm' and 'robot'.in regards to rides at a trip, he was the only child kept in, I spent ages over half term doung word exercise books, building his confidence, he maintains he wasn't allowed out due to not write enough words....I really, really hope theres some misunderstanding here.

This kind of thing happens all to often to children on the spectrum and shows a monumental lack of understanding of ASD. Asking someone with executive function deficit to 'write about their day out' is like asking someone in a wheelchair to take part in the sack race and then punishing them for not doing at least a couple of jumps. I have ASD and being given open ended questions like that makes me cry. All the information starts tumbling around in my head and I can't seperate or process them. At 5 he will have no established structure to 'hang' his thoughts on. Then he gets punished because he's drowning in his own thoughts. Poor little guy.

Amazing post hedgehog, really hit the nail on the head!...even when tidying up toys I have to give him a "pick up 10 or pick up the lego...type instruction" "help me tidy up is too open ended and just leads to stress and frustration. I do wonder how much is understood.

My DD also has ASD and she still gets questions and a list of things to think about to help her sort her thoughts and express them when doing this kind of writing as her 'reasonable adjustment'. She's 21 and doing an English degree.

Thats really good it must help her a lot,

I think I'd have a word with the teacher about specific instructions and how they can really help. Hopefully she just didn't realise.

As an aside, I've taken to being quite precise with DS1. He doesn't have autism AFAIK, but it's in our family and I have a few traits myself. Instead of roaring 'Put your toys AWAY!' I say 'Please put your toys, which are on the floor, into the wooden toy box.' Or for 'STOP THROWING YOUR TOYS ON THE FLOOR' I try to use 'Please put your toys down on the floor GENTLY, like this .' It may be my imagination, but he does seem more compliant when I am very specific. I'd think that instructions delivered in such a style would be fine for all students, not just your DS.

Thanks for that hedgehog I hadn't really thought about the reasons behind it, but the student I referred to earlier definitely responds better to closed questions and precise commands. So part of the 'appropriate help' he gets is one-to-one time and attention to help organise his thoughts- we will ask him a closed question, help him form his answer into a coherent sentence, then help him to record the sentence.

littlemisssunshine so what would you recommend doing instead? There may well be a sensory reason behind his refusal- in which case allowing him to use his chill out corner during lesson time then revisit the work during playtime when the classroom is quiet is actually helpful rather than a punishment.