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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think it's unfair how women hold all the cards in a situation like this?

199 replies

chickendhansak · 17/11/2014 19:40

Yes I know there are plenty of deadbeat dads who don't step up, don't pay anything, barely see their DC, treat them as an inconvenience. Been there, got the tshirt etc.

But for the ones who do...the ones who want to spend as much time as they can with their DC, who pay all they should (and more), it still feel like they get the sticky end of the lollipop. Seeing the kids on Xmas and birthdays only if the XW agrees, missing out on all the everyday stuff because they can't see them every day. And having to the possibility when the XW starts a new relationship, of some bloke getting to spend more time with their kids than they spend with their own father.

I don't know what the solution is, I just think it's bloody hard, especially if it's the woman's decision to break up the family in the first place.

OP posts:
wreckingball · 18/11/2014 07:27

Just reading back, using words like Women 'bleating' and wringing hands is unlikely to endear you to anyone, just plain rude really.

pantone363 · 18/11/2014 07:27

I truly think that 'I want the DC more', 'i only get them on the days she gives' etc etc is all hot air, and that if they were actually given more time they would run a bloody mile.

Yes exDH i'm talking to you. Who protests loudly about not having 50/50...whilst refusing to ever take a day off if the kids are ill and when given the DC this week for 4 nights palmed them off for 2 so he could go out to dinner with his partner alone.

50/50 is great as an abstract concept and to make you look like you give a fuck, in reality, not so much.

chicaguapa · 18/11/2014 07:27

I can see where you're coming from. My narcissistic sis left my BIL with their 2 DC and moved 1.5hrs away. She went off with someone else.

He had his DC one night in the week and every other weekend, but now they're a bit older they don't want to go to him every other weekend as they want to be at home with their friends. So he sees even less of them.

He pays maintenance, didn't choose to not live with his own DC but seems to have very little say over how much he's able to see them. He even lost a court case to stop them moving away.

I've always thought that was a pretty shit situation for him.

chickendhansak · 18/11/2014 07:29

Sad that you think it's about winning.

My DP has to work ft. He therefore only has his DC a couple of times in the week, and eow.

It has been suggested by other posters that if he loved his DC, he'd have them 50/50. He could only do that by using childcare, which the courts would be unlikely to support.

His other option would be to ask for every weekend, but that wouldn't be considered to be fair on their mother to not see the DC at weekends.

So it doesn't leave him much option, aside from working pt which is no option as he couldn't afford it financially. Unless he moved a long way from the DC which would cause a new set of problems.

OP posts:
fedupbutfine · 18/11/2014 07:34

misogynistic claptrap.

I can (and do) support myself. I didn't have children on my own. No one held a gun to my ex's head to make him have frequent, unprotected sex with me. He needs to bear half the responsibility of bringing up his children - including financially. That I have 'enough' money has nothing to do with it. His now 7 year refusal to pay maintenance is abuse of both me and the children. And why on earth should he pay for

I am sure it must be hard for my ex to think of his children spending more time with another man. It's also hard for me to have my children spend time with other women. That's life post-divorce and you both have to get used to it.

wreckingball · 18/11/2014 07:38

I never get how courts can differ so much, some won't let a parent move away with Children yet it seems others do.

wreckingball · 18/11/2014 07:42

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
It's only you, the OP who appears to think it's about winning.
Most families with both parents working have to use some form of Childcare, you say the courts are unlikely to support a 50/50, has this even been looked into by your DP?

Aliennation · 18/11/2014 07:44

OP why does your DP want 50:50 when he wouldn't actually get to physically spend that time with his children anyway? He would have to outsource the care of the children to a stranger and so they wouldn't be with either parent. How is that in the children's best interests?
If he's not willing to reduce his working hours then he is the only one preventing himself seeing more of his children.
It doesn't sound like the mother is being obstructive at all.

chickendhansak · 18/11/2014 08:00

He cant AFFORD to reduce his hours. It's that simple. I don't see why that's so hard to understand.

He would like more time with his DC. To have them 50/50, alternate weeks or whatever, would mean using wraparound care. He would still see more of them, but yes, part of that time would of necessity be spent in childcare. That's time they don't spend in childcare now because their mother doesn't work. For that reason he's had legal advice not to pursue it.

OP posts:
heidiwine · 18/11/2014 08:00

This is my story:
Been with DP for 7 years, he's been divorced for 8. We have overnight contact with his 2 DDs (11 and 14) every Thursday and every other weekend. We have never missed a weekend or a weekly overnight. We also have both girls for 2 weeks in the summer, 1 week during Xmas hols, 1 week half term and 1 week at Easter (all of DPs annual leave because his ex generally has all bank holidays except for May). DP's divorce settlement is unusually generous (IMO): he pays 50% of his salary every month (he's a high earner) and this will continue for all of his earning life. When the settler was agreed (during mediation) DP was depressed and was incapable of seeing a future for himself an so he agreed to every demand and his lawyer let it happen. There is no court ordered access: 'fair and reasonable access'.
I have an understanding of where the OP is coming from. Yes there are thousands of feckless dads out there but there are others like my DP who do a lot for their children and their ex wives.
We have never had the children for any significant life event (including Christmas, their birthdays, our birthdays). I can't explain in words how difficult our life is made by DPs ex who does not work (despite always saying she would go back in some form when children old enough), appears to be in a stable relationship (cohabits), does a lot of the grunt of parenting. However, I can honestly say that I would trade the grunt of parenting in an instant if it meant our lives were easier and we weren't continually attacked an put down by her. The girls are completely torn an this is the true sadness in these situations. Unfortunately there's not a court in the land that can legislate for what the RP (or NRP) does to undermine, damage and belittle a child's relationship with their parent.
I'm afraid that I think that these cases don't get the attention that they should and it's easy to revert to stereotypes of feckless dads and struggling single mums. The truth is that Every situation is different and mine is probably extreme in some places. However, I don't know any feckless dads but I do know many dads who are struggling (like my DP) at the hands of an ex who is using her status as resident parent control and bully. Long term all this can do is damage children.

scallopsrgreat · 18/11/2014 08:08

I'm not sure why people are complaining about women denying access. His ex isn't denying him access.

So he won't take a hit on his income or status (e.g. mortgage, smaller house - his choice, again) to see the kids more? Fair enough.

His ex still isn't holding all the cards. She has given up her income and status. She is picking up the slack for him.

Oh and your ex is abusing his children. Financially and emotionally. Funny how you just seem to overlook that. His behaviour just seems to be minimised in favour of demonising the ex who has done nothing wrong.

scallopsrgreat · 18/11/2014 08:09

What kind of house does his ex and children live in most of the time. Is that a nice big house with a bedroom each and a garden?

WooWooOwl · 18/11/2014 08:12

I hear you OP. It must be hard for you to see someone you love, who is a good and committed father, be upset by missing his children so much.

I don't understand this thing that MN has about women doing all this hard work bring up their own children as if it's some kind of hardship. I feel very lucky that as the woman in my failed relationship I got to be the one that lives with my children, that got to work part time and be the primary carer despite the fact that my ex is a brilliant father that contributes to their financial, practical and emotional needs. It's ridiculous that the word misogynistic gets trotted out as soon as a point is made that shows women being in a better position than men. It is irrelevant how many deadbeat dads there are to the good dads, it doesn't make their situation any easier. Just like the knowledge that some women are shit mothers who have their children taken into care is irrelevant to the mothers who are doing their best with no support.

I can see why it would be hurtful for NRPs to see a new partner living with their children, but sometimes that is just life and something that goes along with having children and then splitting. I know it was hard for my ex when DH (then DP) moved in with us, but with a bit of time he was able to see the benefits of our children having another adult that cared for them and was willing to support them, while still respecting his position as father.

Aliennation · 18/11/2014 08:14

Still sounding like this is all about what your DP wants rather than what is in the children's best interests. No doubt that's why he's been advised not to pursue it.
Am sure he could afford to reduce his working hours if he were willing to make changes to his lifestyle and/or downsize.
If his income goes down then his maintenance would be reduced, as obviously you can't give what you don't have.
As a parent with sole care I, ironically can't afford to work more hours than I do due the high costs of childcare, as is the case for many RP's.

heidiwine · 18/11/2014 08:31

I think the OP has even pretty clear and I don't think it's only about what her DP wants. She's saying it's a no win situation - he is the financial provider for 2 households - if he were to go part time (for example) his income would drop significantly and so would the income going into his children's main home - this would have a big impact on their lives and given that the bulk of their lives happen outside his home he can't control the impact. So no he shouldn't go part time - that would be grossly unfair to the RP an his children.
There are some posters on here who appear to be seriously suggesting that OPs ex should reduce his hours to be more of an 'active' parent downsize his home (where the children's live when they're with him) and try to protect maintenance at current levels (I'm reading between the lines).
Being a parent isn't only about doing the hands on caring. Yes, that role is often undervalued but at the end of the day someone has to pay to meet the needs of the family and that is also a hugely valuable role.

needaholidaynow · 18/11/2014 08:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

chickendhansak · 18/11/2014 09:00

Thanks to those posters who get what I'm saying. Was beginning to feel.like a totally lone voice in the wilderness.

Heidi, your DHs situation has a lot of similarities to my DPs. I think the chances of us ever seeing the DC on their birthdays is small. I know that she they fall on a weekend if it's DPs weekend he'd offer to split it with his X, but she hasn't offered that so far. Maybe next year.

My DP could live in a tiny flat which is about all he could afford on pt salary. Yes in theory then he could seek 50/50. But I'm not sure where he'd get the money for legal fees from. And would his ex/ the court agree to the DC staying in a tiny flat without their own rooms, when they would be more comfortable at their mothers house? Possibly not.

Fwiw, the two houses (the former marital home, and his current one) are very similar. One has slightly more downstairs space, the other slightly larger bedrooms. But pretty comparable, so as to ensure the DC were no less comfortable in his house than when they were with their mum.

OP posts:
AnnieLobeseder · 18/11/2014 09:26

The thing is, OP, no-one is denying that sometimes men get the shitty end of the stick regarding residency after a divorce. But for every man who doesn't get to see his DC as often as he'd like, there is at least one, if not more, woman whose ex has fucked off and doesn't bother either seeing or supporting his children, and the legal system pretty much allows him to do so. So even if in this particular case your DP has got the raw deal, it certainly doesn't equate to "women holding all the cards". In most cases, it really is the men who end up coming out on top. While their children suffer. As others have said, you have a feckless ex who doesn't support or see his DC, so it's baffling that you are so quick to put all the blame on women and think they usually end up with the advantage.

WannaBe · 18/11/2014 09:59

I don’t think that the comparisons i.e. “well there are a lot of men who piss off and never see/support their kids so it can’t be said that women hold all the cards,” are helpful. Two wrongs don’t make a right and all that.

I think it certainly is true that there is an assumption that when a couple splits the woman will be the primary carer and the man will get to see his children on her say-so and for anything else he should go to court, and there are certainly women who do use their children as pawns against their ex’s or who restrict access on the basis of how hard it is to not see their children.

When me and my ex split I was certainly told by some people to “put your foot down” and “tell him he can’t have him for that long,” when e.g. xh wanted to take ds away for a week to see his parents over new year. Hmm

In those instances I wholeheartedly agree that it shouldn’t be the woman who automatically gets to make the decisions and that essentially where possible, if you have a child together, you parent a child together.

But that kind of scenario isn’t what the op is talking about here, is it?

Op says that her dp has his children two nights during the week and every other weekend. Op you do know that in the eyes of the courts that is considered a 50/50 arrangement, don’t you? So what more is it exactly that he wants?

You say that his ex isn’t working, presumably she is the one who does school pick-ups/drop-offs/i the one who is home with the children when they’re ill? Yes, she could get a job, but if that were to be the case, would your dp take the time off at the drop of a hat to look after his children if they woke up ill at his in the morning?

If he’s not in a position to reduce his hours (and tbh i don’t think that should be criticised) there is no merit in having the children on a “50/50” basis just so that he can say he has them 50/50 while actually paying someone else to look after them. That is point-scoring, nothing more, and doesn’t show him in a good light at all.

As for the rest, it could perhaps be argued that women might want to consider going back to work in order to be financially independent. But you know, bringing up children is just as valid, and not all women want to go back to work and leave their children in childcare, and if financially the couple is able to afford for the woman to do that, then why not? The only thing would say is that women do need to be aware that if they give up a career to bring up children, they will likely struggle to get back into work when they are ready to do so, but that still comes down to personal choice. I couldn’t bear to put my baby in nursery when he was tiny, and financially we could afford for me to be home. Plus because xh was commuting and I don’t drive, all the childcare fell to me and nurseries/public transport didn’t tie in with each other when I did consider the possibility of going back to work. It’s just not always that black and white.

As for not moving a new partner in. One of the reasons why couples split up is because they are unhappy in their current relationship. Any couple has the right to move on and find that happiness with someone else. Do I like the idea of another woman living with my ds when he’s at xh’s? No, but equally I believe that ds will benefit from having relationships with multiple people in his life, and as long as she is good to him who am I to say that xh can’t find happiness with someone else because of how I might feel about it? Similarly I know that xh finds it hard seeing ds with my dp, but equally I have the right to move on and have a relationship in my own right. We don’t actually live together atm because of geographical distance, but the only person I would make a decision for would be my ds, not my xh, as I’m sure my xh wouldn’t be considering me when moving in with his dp.

Don’t think your ex will appreciate you martyring yourself for his benefit, in fact he’ll probably enjoy the fact he still holds that kind of power over you.

Wolfbasher · 18/11/2014 10:10

To have them 50/50, alternate weeks or whatever, would mean using wraparound care. He would still see more of them, but yes, part of that time would of necessity be spent in childcare. That's time they don't spend in childcare now because their mother doesn't work. For that reason he's had legal advice not to pursue it.

Obviously what he wants is not in the best interest of the children. He wants to give them less time with their mother and more time with childcare instead of more time with him. How about he drops to 4 days a week, and has them an extra day?

He can't maintain his current standard of living AND see his children more, that may well be true.

But if I broke up with DH (not on the cards, I hope), I would make any and every change necessary in order to maintain time with my DC. My own standard of living would be the first thing to drop. And I believe 'own bedrooms' and gardens and the like come below time spent with parents, so I would draw my own priorities that way. I think a lot of mothers do that.

WoodliceCollection · 18/11/2014 15:27

So OP, in summary your problems are:

  1. Your husband doesn't want to reduce his paid work to spend more time with his kids (spare us all the site about the wee darlings needing their own rooms- mine share and may well continue to do so until they leave home; they are in no way traumatised by this ffs). He also is too dim to realise that child maintenance is earnings based.
  2. Your husband's employer might not let him cut his hours (though he doesn't know this because he's not bothered to ask), even though legally they have to consider any such request if his children are under 16.
  3. Your husband's "legal team" (bless, isn't he so terribly important to need a whole team rather than just one solicitor like all the plebs) are so appallingly crap that they don't know that alternating celebrations like Christmas has been standard in divorce cases for at least the last 30 years.

So exactly which of these problems is caused by his ex? Unless she is prime minister and possibly also his employer, and God, she doesn't control his working hours, the law on flexible working, or who he chooses as his lawyer.

LineRunner · 18/11/2014 16:17

OP, on reflection I think you are getting the shitty end of the stick from your DP here.

If if I have read this right, you don't live together, and you won't be in the foreseeable future. You are a full-working time lone parent, and your current DP is working long hours and running two fairly expensive houses and often has his children living with him in his house. He also maintains/consults a [small] legal team. You give the impression you are faced with your DP's unhappiness, and resentment of his former wife, quite frequently.

You get no child support from your own DC's father. You work bloody hard to support yourself and your DC.

Sounds stressful, I reckon. Who's looking after you, and your emotional needs?

PuffinsAreFicticious · 18/11/2014 16:51

Sorry, but I don't believe your DPs 'legal team' has told him not to bother going back to court for 50/50 because he'd have to use childcare. Unless his ExW would also have to give up residency if she got a ft job?

The starting point for the family courts is for care to be split 50/50 unless there are good reasons for that not to happen. This is a matter of public record, go and look it up. Your DP not being willing for whatever reason to reduce his hours to suit his children is the reason why he doesn't have it. The only people that merit any consideration in custody disputes are the children, and, if they are happy with the present arrangement, then they, quite rightly, hold all the cards.

The number of women suggesting that other women giving up careers and earning potential in order to look after children are sitting on their arses living off their exes or the state is pretty horrible really.

GaryShitpeas · 18/11/2014 16:54

yanbu got a friend who's DH's VILE ex is keeping him from his toddler dcs

for no good reason other than she is a bitch

anyway deffo yanbu but bet you'll get told YABU

FraidyCat · 18/11/2014 16:58

How about he drops to 4 days a week

I don't know any man (or woman for that matter) who has a job where this is an option. I suspect it's usually relatively unskilled minimum wage jobs where this is possible. I doubt there are many jobs that pay the running costs of two households where the employers don't care how often you turn up.

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