To want help to move newborn DDs cluster feeds into the evening?! (Breastfeeding query)

[Absofrigginlootly]

Pfb/DD born 2 weeks ago....first week was utter hell until her tongue tie was snipped (she basically fed 24/7 to get enough milk as her latch was so poor)....she now goes 2-3 hours between feeds in the day, but cluster feeds none stop between 11pm-5am!!

Her latch still isn't perfect (lined up some NCT help and she is seeing an osteopath as her jaw is still a bit tight) but hopefully it will improve. I think though that she is perhaps feeding for longer than normal (30 mins) because her latch still isn't perfect....which is why her cluster feeding sessions go on so long.

At the moment I am going with it and sleeping 2-3 hour stretches between feeds 5am-12pm. But this means I'm never up and about before midday! And I try to grab an hour or 2 early evening to see me through the long night!! So I'm never going to leave the house if this continues!! It would be so much better if she cluster fed in the evening 7pm-12am for eg.....is there anyway to subtly 'tweek' her feeding/sleeping etc to bring her cluster feeding session forward???

Also, how long does this newborn cluster feeding period last in general? 4 weeks? 6? 12?! Would be very motivational to think the end might be in sight!!! :)

Thanks

...and at 14 weeks, DS2 will self-settle from wide awake to fast asleep in his cot in five minutes without so much as a dummy by 8pm, yet be awake every 1-2 hours for a (quick) feed. Some babies sleep, some do not. Mine, it would seem, do not

If she's windy it might help her to sleep on her side OP. It really helped my youngest.

I know they don't want to put women off trying to breastfeed by letting on as to how hard it can be in advance, but I do think an element of forewarned is forearmed is needed.

Yes. Feeding is first and foremost a choice, and women should be encouraged to make an informed choice.

Not telling mothers it's hard and what to truly expect isn't going to make women continue to try and feed. In fact, I'd say it'd make it worse since women expect it to be easy and relaxing, so they don't think they're doing it right. When I did my first breast feed at the hospital, I was surprised at how much it hurt. It was not relaxing in the slightest, in fact it was jarring and awkward because of how I had to hold the baby like a football (American football) on the side of my body so she could latch properly. It was not cuddly bonding time like classes and books suggested.

I lasted about 3 days before quitting.

That said, educated or not, I would not have stuck with it either way. It was hard, painful, and I hated it.

Oh, for gas...

If you're ok with pumping, Dr. Brown's bottles are a lifesaver! They have a little straw-tube thing in the middle that prevents gas or air from getting in. That might help alleviate some discomfort if it gets too bad.

Hang in there! Bottle fed babies don't sleep either, mine didn't. So it might have nothing to do with breast feeding or her tongue tie.

The cuddly bonding bit most definitely comes, but it does take several weeks (with your first - it was quicker with my second due to experience). You get past the pain and can get comfy in pretty much any position. I managed to hold DS2 under one arm, feeding him in rugby ball/American football hold, while lifting DS1 out of the bath with my other arm and giving him a cuddle a few times, as DS2 was still cluster feeding and was NOT going to take kindly to taking a break. I felt like a total pro!

DS2 is at the stage now that I very fondly remember with DS1 where he strokes me very gently throughout a feed with his soft little hands. With that, plus the oxytocin whizzing around, it is TOTAL bliss and so, so worth those horrible early painful and exhausting weeks.

I agree with elphaba. Ds is 12 weeks and his little hands on my boob when he feeds is lovely and such a great feeling when he is on and happily feeding . Worth all the nights and evenings of pain if you can manage it

Arrrggghhhhh!!!!!! So frustrated I could scream!!!!!!!!!!

2 hours sleep last night, 4 the night before!

DD seemed to be settling down. All night cluster feeding seemed to settle and be replaced with 6pm-12am cluster feeding which is more than manageable....except that since Sunday DD seems to be getting more fractious with each cluster feeding session....screeeeeeaaaaaaming with ???over tiredness??? And hard to soothe and settle.

Well Tuesday night she was becoming increasingly more unsettled/frantic whilst feeding and yesterday (weds) she seemed overtired during the day too (which she hasn't been ever since TT snip) sleeping/napping less than normal and unable for me to put her down so she catnapped on me (no one else around to take her yesterday) so I didn't get any chance to catch up on sleep.....then weds night (last night) she cluster fed from 5pm-2am, VERY frantic, screaming and unsettled. Eventually got her to have 3 1/2hours sleep (1.5 hours on me, 2 on DH as we couldn't put her down). Just tried to put her down again now and she woke up screaming again!!! Currently asleep on me (DH has to work). Called DM to come over and hold her today so I can catch up a bit....

She isn't unwell....is peeing and pooing and no temperature. I don't understand why she has become so fractious?! It's like before her snip when she wasn't getting enough milk from me and was hungry and overtired. Only now I think she IS getting enough milk from me, I dint think she's hungry, but she is definitely overtired!

DH thinks we need to switch to FF now as thus situation is unsustainable. I've only managed to get through the last 3 weeks by having someone here with me everyday. I'm worried that she is only getting enough milk from me by feeding lots and lots (due to poor latch) which us having a detrimental effect on her sleep. For example, in the last 24 hours she has only had 8 & 1/2 hours sleep :s

The HV is coming today to weigh her and I know what she'll say already "baby is gaining weight and peeing and pooing well so BF is going well"
Thus is what the MWs kept saying to me before her TT snip.

Yes she was bloody well doing ok but only because I was feeding 24/7 and basically killing myself to achieve that!!!!!
This feels like the same situation (just not quite 24/7 feeding)....

Surely BF isn't supposed to be like this? I know it's hard, painful (my nipples are killing me!), time consuming etc etc....but baby seems so fractious.

I feel like such a shite mum that I'm not able to feed my DD effectively and keep her calm/settled and well rested :(

I really want to BF....but am I hurting everyone to stubbornly keep going??????

No, you're not hurting everybody by keeping going, but what you're also describing is over-tiredness due to an unwillingness to be put down. That's a completely separate issue to BFing. Giving her formula is unlikely to change that, but again, it's not an all-or-nothing thing. You don't have to only FF or only BF - you can mix-feed if you think it will make things more manageable. The fractiousness does sound like over-tiredness, though, nothing to do with feeding.

I'll say it again - co-sleeping. Safe co-sleeping. It's the only way to get through this. Find the firmest double bed in the house and earmark it for you and DD. DH will have to sleep on the sofa if you have no spare bed. Put her in a sleeping bag on top of the blanket/s (not duvet) covering you. A way she may be happy sleeping is with you flat on your back with her head and shoulders on your armpit/shoulder IYSWIM, and your arm around her. Even if you're a side-sleeper (like me) I bet you'll be able to sleep like this because you're so knackered. Because you're BFing, you will not roll on her or smother her - there is a built-in mechanism to stop BFing mothers from doing that. Then naps any which way you can during the day, such that she's awake for no longer than 45 minutes at a time. DS2 had all naps in the sling at this stage because I didn't really have the option of napping with a two year old around, but if someone is around to hold her, that's great so that you can catch up.

Got to go sorry (cross baby!) but I'll post again of I think of more.

You're doing great. NOTHING prepares you for the grinding reality of a newborn!

Right. Boob inserted. Quiet baby.

She has been in you for nine months so the transition to the outside world is very hard for some babies. Some will just be happily put in a cot to sleep alone from birth. Some will not. We're convinced in our society that a 'good' baby is one that will sleep long stretches on its own. That has been pushed as the norm and mothers are made to feel like there's something they SHOULD be doing about it if it doesn't happen. There is an infuriating historical reason for this involving a dickwad of a male doctor but I won't go into that now. Just know that what your DD is doing is normal 'fourth trimester' behaviour and is not damaging to her - just to your sleep and sanity. If you Google 'fourth trimester' you might get some more info and strategies. Co-sleeping, swaddling and white noise (have any of us suggested that yet?) are all common themes.

Don't be concerned that co-sleeping will mean she'll never go in a cot - it's not the case. I really tried forcing the cot with DS1 and he ended up rejecting it entirely. I started out co-sleeping with DS2 and by gradually inching away from him and progressing from co-sleeping to co-sleeper cot to some day naps in a cot bed in what will be his own room, he's much happier sleeping away from me than DS1 ever was because he was fully supported in those hellishly hideous early days.

Just wrote this with DS2 stroking me gently throughout the feed which sends me absolutely comatose with bliss and he's now smiling at me with milk dribbling down his adorable face. It gets easier OP, it honestly does. These early days will soon seem like a brief, distant nightmare.

Hi OP, I'm not an expert as my ds is only 4 weeks old but he had terrible problems latching, to the point that we got readmitted into hospital the day after being discharged because he lost so much weight. He's now thriving on breast milk and has gained all the weight he should have and more. My midwife helped a lot with advice.

I breastfeed during the day, and allow ds to go little and often. At night I give him expressed milk which tanks him up a bit and makes him really sleepy. I use the medula mini pump which is great. It also helps because on the weekend DH can give those bottles in the night so that I have two nights of better sleep which makes all the difference. I am also a fan of breastfeeding lying down because it allows DS to feed, rest, feed, rest which feels more relaxing for us both. In the first couple of weeks my supply wasn't great so i also supplemented with ff until my supply increased, but always offered breast milk first. My midwife also mentioned nipple shield but i didn't end up using those.

I've no idea if this would be helpful for you but I hope you don't feel alone. These early weeks are so special so I hope you can work something out soon.

Ds asleep for his nap :-)

It will get easier but you just have to experiment to see what works for you and your baby. Talk to the health visitor too. They may spot another issue and they will be concerned about you too so should be able to offer advice

Two things that may help....

1. Why don't you try expressing some milk and feeding with a bottle. That way you will know whether she is frustrated as she is not getting enough. It won't affect your supply but will give you some guidance. As has been said, you can mix feed. You can basically do anything you want especially if it makes You all happier. You have tried very hard and you are doing so well so no one here will judge you if you mix feed or ff. That said, you don't want any regrets so you are right to want to persevere but if you've given it your best,that is all you can do. And ... I am now exclusively breastfeeding despite having a few weeks early on when things got so bad that I did a formul feed at night. That said, formula is not always the answer.

I can't remember whether you tried a dummy?

1. Look up snuggle bund. I think it might be useful to move baby without disturbing her so if she falls asleep with you you may be able to move her onto your bed for example. Just an idea. I haven't used one but it may help

These days will go so quickly. It just doesn't feel like it now :-)

The fractiousness does sound like over-tiredness, though, nothing to do with feeding.

That's the thing though, I do genuinely think they are related. I think because her latch still isn't great, she is feeding from me more/longer than an 'average' BF baby would feed, which means she isn't getting all the sleep she needs in a 24 hour period.

I am prepared to mix feed or whatever in the short term if it gets us to a point that in a few weeks when she has grown and her latch has improved (I hope) and her jaw is looser than we'd be able to drop the feed and go back to exclusive BF...but I have no idea if that is really needed or not....it's just my 'feeling' that she's overtired because she's feeding so much. I just can't seem to get someone (HV?) to assess the situation properly for me...

I've also no idea how I would go about adding in a FF...?! (Also concerned about nipple confusion With introducing a bottle as she still doesn't have her latch right).....

I do get that babies aren't automatically ok with being put down to sleep in a cot when they are used to/want to be close and cuddled....but she was going down in her cot/basket 60% of the time I'd say....but the last few days she has got really fractious and clingy again.... Because she is overtired.
I must admit that I'm not very happy with the idea of co sleeping.....it just doesn't sit well with me from a SIDS point of view. All the evidence from the lullaby trust etc keeps saying that it isn't safe....not trying to be awkward, but I can't help the way I feel....

Ps, tried a dummy last night, she hated it. Just gagged on it.

Haven't read all the replies so sorry if I'm repeating things

It's normal. Your milk production hormones are highest in the night and a newborn will instinctively feed then. It's to build and establish your supply.

Go with it if you can, it will settle down within a week or so. There's a growth spurt around 2 weeks which probably isn't helping, next big one is around 6 weeks and from then on its easy.

It was a long time ago for me.. but I do remember the sheer frustration and killer tiredness of the early weeks with a tongue tied baby.
What you dd does today, may not be what she will do tomorrow or it might be.
By their very nature newborns are slightly unpredictable and I found it pays not to get to wrapped up in routines and really just go with the flow as much as you can in the first months.
Unfortunately, some babies just seem to take an age to settle into the feed/wind/sleep routine and I wound myself up in knots trying to impose a routine on a baby who was having none of it!
Please take good care of yourself, it is such early days for you both and things will settle soon.

I do understand. The idea of co-sleeping with my first TERRIFIED me, hence I pushed the cot, to his longer term detriment. When he was 10 months + it was like trying to get a cat in the bath and from that point on we could ONLY co-sleep.

There was recent research from Australia, who are the world-leaders in SIDS research hides Australian accent that suggests safe co-sleeping reduces the risk of SIDS as it supports breastfeeding and keeps the baby's breathing and temperature more regulated that when they're further away from the mother. The Lullaby Trust will tell you that 90% of SIDS deaths are caused by co-sleeping. Every time they give a case-study, however, the parents were co-sleeping unsafely - duvets, both parents in bed, drugs/smoking/alcohol involved, formula feeding, baby sleeping on a pillow or under a duvet...the list goes on. Both UNICEF and the NHS publish safe co-sleeping guidelines as they acknowledge its benefit and its place.

WRT her feeding frequency related to becoming overtired - you say she will sleep on you/someone for long stretches (and, yes, two hours is a 'long stretch' for a newborn!), so she's not waking due to hunger then. When she's cluster feeding, she will be sleeping as well, unless her eyes are wide open. If you try and put her down at other times and she wakes and roots, she'll be doing that as much because she knows that's how she can get herself back to sleep as quickly as possible and wants the security of mum to do it.

WRT her going into her basket a few days ago, but not doing it now...that will happen for the duration of babyhood (and don't even start me on toddlers...). What will be fine for a bit will be the worst thing ever after a few days. There isn't a steady trajectory of improvement. It's a state of flux with incremental changes in your preferred direction over a period of time. I think DS2 was at least six weeks before I could reliably keep him in his cot all night and he'd go back happily after feeds. That said, he's now 15 weeks old so the bastard of a four month sleep regression may soon be upon me kill me now. When DS1 had this it was newborn phase times a million. He would sleep in half hour stretches at night and only on me, so I'm bracing myself for this with DS2. Then he went back to his cot reluctantly, then it was co-sleeping, now he's in his own bed, but now that he's getting to 2.5yo separation anxiety, bedtimes are getting tricky again. All of that is because he's a normal infant, not because he was breastfed.

The only guarantee with babies is that there are no guarantees!

You mentioned about the baby being confused if you mix feed. I had exactly the same worries but because of the problems with the latch i had to start off expressing/mix feeding. Now my baby will accept a bottle but much prefers to breast feed and he doesn't need any formula now. You know your baby, if something seems wrong you are the expert not the health visitor.

Little update for anyone who read this thread (I always love updates when I find a thread on a relevant problem)....DD magically stopped all night cluster feeding at 3 & 1/2 weeks and did a couple of weeks of evening 7-12 sessions and seems to have basically stopped doing it althougher now.... Goes anywhere between 1-4 hourly between feeds now day and night