To want help to move newborn DDs cluster feeds into the evening?! (Breastfeeding query)

[Absofrigginlootly]

Pfb/DD born 2 weeks ago....first week was utter hell until her tongue tie was snipped (she basically fed 24/7 to get enough milk as her latch was so poor)....she now goes 2-3 hours between feeds in the day, but cluster feeds none stop between 11pm-5am!!

Her latch still isn't perfect (lined up some NCT help and she is seeing an osteopath as her jaw is still a bit tight) but hopefully it will improve. I think though that she is perhaps feeding for longer than normal (30 mins) because her latch still isn't perfect....which is why her cluster feeding sessions go on so long.

At the moment I am going with it and sleeping 2-3 hour stretches between feeds 5am-12pm. But this means I'm never up and about before midday! And I try to grab an hour or 2 early evening to see me through the long night!! So I'm never going to leave the house if this continues!! It would be so much better if she cluster fed in the evening 7pm-12am for eg.....is there anyway to subtly 'tweek' her feeding/sleeping etc to bring her cluster feeding session forward???

Also, how long does this newborn cluster feeding period last in general? 4 weeks? 6? 12?! Would be very motivational to think the end might be in sight!!! :)

Thanks

Got a better nights sleep by her falling asleep on DH between 10pm-12am (he was awake) then allowing her to sleep on me between cluster feeds I racked up 3 1/2 hours on and off during the night....then she slept in her crib between 8.45-11.45 for 3 hours solidly (she normally has a good chunk of sleep in the morning...this is when I catch up!)

I followed my friends advice about tucking duvet in around my waist and just putting a thin sheet over her and shuffling down a bit flatter. Trouble is when she was asleep on me during the night she was face down on my chest, as that is how she falls asleep after winding between feeds. I spoke to the lullaby trust info phone line today and they said letting your baby sleep on your chest face down when you are asleep is a real no no!!! So now I feel very confused again.

I guess the other thing I can try again is co sleeping her flat on the bed next to me between feeds..... Tried it at the start of the night and she just woke straight up! Because I do need to wind her otherwise trapped wind wakes her up when she is led flat on her back. I have to feed her sitting up though because I have to do hushing like nipple sandwiching and then breast compressions to get her to feed effectively post TT snip...this just doesn't work led down.

I need to find some solution to see me through this cluster feeding period otherwise I'm just not physically going to be able to to continue Breastfeeding. I don't feel I can survive on only 3-5 hours broken up sleep during the daytime.....

I just don't know which is the lesser evil.....her sleeping on my chest between feeds and maintaining the Breastfeeding. Or giving up, switching to formula so that we can put her down in her cot between feeds. ......??!?!

I don't think it's an either/or. You can try mix feeding. For me, that ended up meaning, at 2wks old, nappy change during which she was probably crying and getting hungry, feed of around 20 mins on each breast, tickling her under the chin to keep her awake and feeding, then making formula available if she wanted it. Then she had massive cuddles and snuggles while I was winding her. Then, wrap up tight and lay down flat. She would be awake for a bit then drop off. Sometimes had a grizzle before sleeping, at which I would give a good cuddle and kiss and put down again. Then she would sleep, wake up and the whole shebang would start again. At that stage, it was around a 1-1.25hour routine for around an hour of sleep. But it was a routine imposed by me. Before we knew it, the feeds were getting shorter and the sleeps longer. We mix fed for 6months, mostly because I wanted to move off bf.

Also, please don't think that formula will necessarily "fix" this. It might do, but it might not. To a large extent, whatever you do, you will not be getting long chunks of sleep at night at this stage. It is a rare baby who will go that long, and some might be concerned if it does. Yes, it would be good to move away from sleeping during the day and feeding at night, and you are doing all the right things to make that happen (asking for advice, trial and error, sticking it out). But there's no right answer. Try a bit of this and a bit of that, and while you're doing that DD's body will be settling down and getting used to life....it will happen, things will settle down. It will suck in the process, but you're doing well and getting through it. One day at a time, and low low low expectations.

I'm sorry but I don't thing that swapping to formula will help the settling thing. Some babies are just like that when they are little. My ds would only sleep on my chest for the first few weeks, then would settle fine in Moses basket and is actually a pretty good sleeper. Dd was the opposite - settled fine in Moses from the off, but has never been a good sleeper. Both ebf. This first stage is just really tough however you feed and you just have to sleep when you can. It's still really, really early days.

WTF?!?!? Today has gone ok..... Baby feeding 2-3 hourly (closer to 2) seemed to be having nice feeds, 20 odd mins long, baby coming off satisfied and sleepy. Managed a few stints of napping in her crib/moses basket....

Fast forward to tonight...since about 7pm she started feeding hourly....gaining momentum until 10.30pm when she started behaving in a 'FRENZY' again, only this is the worst I have seen her!!!!!! Wanting to feed continuously for 2 hours until half 12 (and I mean with NO breaks!!! Not even 30 seconds, she is frantic, angry, screaming, head butting me, hitting me etc. comes on and off constantly, pulls herself off and then SCREAMS to go back on immediately!

DH took her off for 40 mins to see if being away from me would help but she barely calmed down on him and eventually started screaming for the boob again. Thing is she doesn't even seem hungry, just that she wants/needs to suck?!

I've just changed her nappy, tried winding her and walking round the house but she wants boob again! Has been feeding for 4. 1/2 hours now with no sign of stopping..... My nipples are sore :(

How does anyone survive this?!

Hang in there! The constant night demands are so tough but what you are saying sounds so familiar.
Sleep when you can. Even lying down for 10 mins helps. I was oddly reluctant to do this for some reason. Formula would be just as tough. I noticed some gaps appearing by wk 3-4 but only with hindsight. I would get to the w.e and realise the week was marginally easier.
My life savers were

1. dh winding him when there were gaps. I would immediately jump into bed.
2. Me feeding lying down. Me on my side. Ds on a pillow. Dh "holding" ds on sometimes while I slept!
3. Lanisol religiously applied in any gap. Really helps nipples recover.

My ds started sleeping slightly longer from 6 wks. The first time he dud midnight to 4am I woke in a panic assuming he was ill as I hadn't fed for "so" long. At 5 mths the early days feel a life time ago and I love bf him. It helps I only do it

...5 times a day now.

Keep going and take it one day at a time. If settling him to sleep us an issue (once the feeding frenzy dose end I second the sleepyhead recommendations).

Op it will pass, you're doing really well. IME all this settled down around 6 weeks and then BF is so much easier than the faff of bottles! Re teaching the difference between night and day, I know it's easier said than done when you are using the time to catch up on sleep, but I wouldn't let her nap for longer than 2-3 hours during the day, I'd be waking her up and feeding. A lot of babies can sleep 4-5 hrs at this stage (it's the definition of sleeping through ) and she needs to be encouraged to do that at night. Also, one of the best pieces of advice I was given was to get as many calories in during the day as poss. While you can't force a baby to take a feed, if she's got a pattern of say, every 2.5hrs, you could try offering at 2 hrs, it's possible in this way to get in an extra feed in the day and hopefully tank her up a bit for the night.

I have had two babies, both with tongue tie, and I really really feel for you!

I found that after a number of hours cluster feeding, my babies would get the 'rage' you mentioned. This may not work for you but I found it was because my babies were actually over tired and desperate for sleep, and were trying to sooth themselves with all the sucking.

I co-slept and introduced a dummy. This worked for me - the dummy settled them off into a deeper sleep during the night. I would also try and feed your baby every two hours during the day so they get more milk in the daytime. Good luck! x

Oh and try different dummies if one brand doesn't work. Mine both liked the Tommee Tippee 'cherry ' (round brown teat) latex ones.

Also, don't beat yourself up about it - you are doing an amazing job and nobody can prepare you for how tough it can be. You will turn a corner though and if you can crack breast feeding it is the easiest way to feed your baby in the long run and well worth it.

Mixing formula and breast feeding is a good option too if it all gets too much - it doesn't have to be either or. Maybe one good bottle feed early evening will help.

This all sounds horribly familiar. I have a 3 week old and feel basically suicidal at the moment. I have no sleep at all really. Don't know what to say other than you're not alone.

I actually fantacise about being hit by a car so I could get some sleep.

Hi OP sorry that you're struggling. With regards to the rage on the night, two of mine have had this (DC3 currently still does!) and as a PP has suggested it seems to be caused by the fact that they want to suck to get to sleep, but don't want milk, so the milk coming when they suck makes them angry...sounds as though this could be the case for you because you have good supply so there is still milk even after a long feeding session! For one of my DCs a dummy was the solution to this - it allowed him to get his sucking needs and drop off to sleep. Unfortunately I haven't been able to use a dummy with this DC - even after 6 weeks, because it does give her nipple confusion, so I have to resort to other ways of settling her to sleep when she has the rage.

In short, I'd try a dummy - and don't give up too fast, you may need to gently hold it in her
mouth for a little while til she works it out. Also don't assume formula will be a solution - babies are often just crazy feeders at this stage! And if your supply is good it is unlikely to be being caused by her not being able to get enough milk.

Good luck! It doesn't last for ever!

Us and billions of women over the millenia are testament to the fact that it is definitely survivable OP - and as you can see several of us idiots have survived it more than once!

The thing that makes it most survivable as we keep saying is feeding lying down and safe co-sleeping. I know you've said you can't feed lying down, but is there anyone like a peer supporter from the BfN or LLL who could come and see you at home to help you work on it? One thing I did with DS1 as well was I managed to express one night's worth of feeds and hand him over to DH for one night. DH fed him by cup through the night (while necking Coke himself) and I got 10 hours straight. It was the pick-me-up I needed to get me through the rest of it. One night of this is not going to affect your supply, which you already know is good. Your boobs might feel like hot rocks in the morning, but you'll feel well-rested.

Biologically, as an interesting factoid, the thing that happens in BFing mothers to help with the interrupted sleep is that the oxytocin released in BFing actually helps you to fall into a very deep sleep, very quickly so that you can actually feel (and be) surprisingly re-charged on short bursts of sleep.

DS2 is one that wants to suck but gets furious when milk comes so he has a dummy, although I didn't introduce it until seven or eight weeks as I've always hated the things. It makes him easier to settle, but hasn't changed his frequency of feeds.

BFing is really so worth this initial investment, it really is. Nothing has come close to giving me the sense of achievement that feeding my two boys has. You also cannot beat the convenience and flexibility it ultimately gives you once you're ready to get out and about. As an example - after we took DS1 swimming a few weeks ago, DH decided he wanted to go to a local rugby match which had good terraces for families. Since I was breastfeeding, and we didn't have to think 'Oh gosh, have we got enough bottles and formula with us?' we went and then carried on to a meal afterwards. We had initially planned to be out for an hour. We ended up being out for over six and had a lovely day, with DS2 attending his first rugby game, albeit on the boob throughout! No way would you be able to have this spontaneity with bottles.

Keep going. You're doing an amazing job

Hang on in there for how long? Are we talking until 6 weeks? 12?!

Do I need to adjust my expectations that I will basically not leave the house for the next 2 months where I am awake all night feeding and then catching up where I can thru the day??

DH has a very demanding job so he can't really help out at night time. My mum is basically here everyday (she would be here everyday if I asked) so that right now baby is asleep on her and I am just about to get my head down....at midday on a beautiful sunny day :(
She is sitting in the daylight with baby to try and get her some sunlight even if I can't have any!

I just don't know what I should realistically expect from this period of time....

I'm just not sure a time period is helpful Abso. Firstly it'll massively depend on your baby, and secondly the truth is just a bit depressing. But here goes... This newborn phase will get better quickly and you will get used to less sleep. IME there were dramatic improvements by about 6-8weeks with both babies, but it wasn't until 12weeks plus that I felt I had everything under control. I then found 12-18weeks/4 months easy. But both mine had terrible sleep regression at 4 months and started waking throughout the night again. Dd is nearly 3 and has only just started sleeping well despite our earlier attempts at sleep training. Ds slept well from 5-8months. But he is now 10.5 months and has only done two stretches of sleep longer than 4hrs in the last 2months.
So I think disturbed nights can be quite ongoing. But, on a more positive note, the relentlessness of the new baby stage where the baby is completely depend on YOU will pass quite quickly.

YY to 'you'll get used to less sleep'. I went back to work full-time when DS1 was eight months old and I was getting five broken hours a night (NOTHING to do with BFing, OP, he was just a shit sleeper). It was hideous, but I survived.

I can honestly say the ridiculously long cluster feeds didn't last beyond about six weeks for either of mine - less possibly for DS2. I was out and about doing nursery runs, and managing a toddler plus a newborn during the day as needed, once DH finished his paternity leave after two weeks. I just had to mainline coffee and grit my teeth.

WRT your DH having a demanding job - so do you. And I can tell you from vast experience of both staying at home with a baby (plus a toddler now) on no sleep and going to work on no sleep, going to work is much easier, I assure you! You've got other things to think about other than how fucking tired you are and have the luxury of adult conversation, solo toilet visits and the ability to stare at the wall for 30 seconds if you need to. One night of taking over will not kill him, I promise, but will probably make the world of difference to you.

One other thing I've thought of - if she's taking a break for a snooze in the early evening, could you maybe do a dream-feed? Expressed milk or formula into a bottle and give it to her while she's asleep - she'll automatically suck it down, and because she's asleep won't register the change in delivery method so you shouldn't need to worry about nipple confusion. Might buy you a few extra hours and get her used to being tanked-up earlier in the evening.

You're really asking how long a piece of string is, OP. It totally delends on your DD and who knows what's going on there!

Here's what I have learned. Babies have instincts which are often not compstible with our lives. Some women are ready and willing to give those instincts priority over their own lives, and in my experience a bf mother often has to sacrifice a lot (phyiscal energy, headspace, mental freedom, basic bodily functions etc) to continue to bf. There is no doubt that at this stage a ff woman has a greater chance of not having her former life/routine become distorted beyond recognition.

However, I do agree that bf can, in the (medium, and even short but definitely) long run, be more freeing. It wasn't for me: I wanted the physical distance and autonomy from my baby, and am an organised person so ff was never an inconvenience for me. But it's there as an option which we are lucky to have.

As I said earlier, the key thing is to not let your feeding issues, all-consuming as they are at this stage, take over completely. Don't let them damage your feelings towards DD, harbour resentment to your DH for being able to sleep and go to work (although a little resentment is allowed, of course ), or bend you too far out of shape. Your current steuggles will, very likely, be short-lived. If you want to bf, stick with it as it will get a lot better relatively quickly. In the meantime, just have low expectations: no you won't leave the house for days on end, no you won't shower until 5pm some days, no, you won't have a hot cup of tea without something attached to your boob, no you won't have any slace from the baby. But, you will get through it and if you are determined to bf you will be very happy to have stuck it out.

If that all sounds like too much, even for a few weeks, I would just switch to mix feeding (or ff). Honestly, with my hand on my heart, it it NOT THAT BIG A DEAL. Take a decision, stick with it, and move on to enjoying your newborn fully.

Spot on Brock.

When she is frantically feeding she is probably over-tired and needing a calm quiet dark place to sleep. It took me 3 months to work that out with my oldest. She didn't need more feeding or cuddling at that stage. She needed to cry for a few minutes then she would sleep. Formula made no difference.

Hi all, thank you for your posts, given me lots to think about. Now I have managed to catch up on a bit more sleep I can understand what you are saying now. It's so hard to understand the big picture when you are besides yourself with sleep deprivation.

I know no one can actually say for sure how long these all night feeding sessions will last, but as I hadn't heard of them before I really didn't have a clue what to expect....coupled with concerns about her feeding in general due to her TT. But reading your posts and chatting to my HV it seems that around the 6 week mark seems to be when things gradually start to improve on the whole day-night front....so I am going to accept that things are the way they are right now, sleep when the baby does during the day and try to go with the flow. I really want to BF...so I'm going to try to make it work. If it gets to the point where things are untenable then we'll have to review it again.
I also think she was overtired the other night when she had 'The Rage' as I don't think she'd slept enough.....she still fed from 11pm-3am continuously last night, but was much calmer about it....she is definitely suffering from trapped wind though :(

Another positive is that she was weighed yesterday and has put on tons!!!! :) so although her latch isn't perfect i feel reassured its 'good enough' and just hope that with the TT exercises, osteopathy and time, things will improve on that front too.

Thanks all for your support and kind words, it has helped

I'm glad you are feeling better. You to going with the flow, also take one day at a time. With my first I found no problem lasted more than a week or so, but there seemed to be a new issue each week. With my second it felt much easier because I knew a bit more what to expect and was happier to give things (sleep and feeding problems) a bit of time before worrying and looking for solutions.

If she is suffering wind - could it be something in your diet? I don't think bf babies rend to be windy - could be wrong. Mine were horrible with wind if I ate onions

I think she's still taking in air with her poor latch...as sometimes she burps during a feed whilst at the boob, sometimes she is squirming with wind whilst feeding :s
Guess time will improve it as her latch improves....????!

I think it will Abso. DS2 screamed, burped and puked his way through his first eight weeks then, almost a month to the day after he had his tongue tie snipped, it all resolved within a matter of days. A couple of management strategies I used during that time which really seemed to help was books under the head of his co-sleeper cot so that he slept at almost a 45 degree angle and letting him nap fully upright in a sling - both helped get his wind up fairly naturally. As I said upthread, newborns are generally a little refluxy due to gut immaturity. I tried a dairy/egg/soy exclusion diet during this time, but it wasn't that. In hindsight, I'd have waited out the month after the tongue tie snip before trying to exclude things. Going without cake and chocolate during newborn hell was horrifying!

Glad you're feeling a bit more positive

It does get better and I am due number 2 end this mth and with ds1 who is now 4 couldn't believe the sleep deprivation and length of feeds despite being a maternity night nanny I think nothing prepares you for it.

Determination made me carry on my first Fed 2hrly for an hr at a time for 6-7weeks and then slowly it got better at 8weeks we were down to sleep at 8pm with a 12pm n 4am feed anything after that was a bonus by 12weeks had dropped the 12pm and 15weeks going til 6/7am. I fed on demand in day n was roughly 2hrly but I didn't care as nights were sorted.

I
We had issues with refusal of one breast which he only took if dozy so always gave on rousing.

I think once you accept this is how it is things automatically seem easier and I was so glad I continued bf is so much easier in long term and we fed til 23mths although that was just a bedtime feed from about 18mths.

Good luck and sleep when you can