To want help to move newborn DDs cluster feeds into the evening?! (Breastfeeding query)

[Absofrigginlootly]

Pfb/DD born 2 weeks ago....first week was utter hell until her tongue tie was snipped (she basically fed 24/7 to get enough milk as her latch was so poor)....she now goes 2-3 hours between feeds in the day, but cluster feeds none stop between 11pm-5am!!

Her latch still isn't perfect (lined up some NCT help and she is seeing an osteopath as her jaw is still a bit tight) but hopefully it will improve. I think though that she is perhaps feeding for longer than normal (30 mins) because her latch still isn't perfect....which is why her cluster feeding sessions go on so long.

At the moment I am going with it and sleeping 2-3 hour stretches between feeds 5am-12pm. But this means I'm never up and about before midday! And I try to grab an hour or 2 early evening to see me through the long night!! So I'm never going to leave the house if this continues!! It would be so much better if she cluster fed in the evening 7pm-12am for eg.....is there anyway to subtly 'tweek' her feeding/sleeping etc to bring her cluster feeding session forward???

Also, how long does this newborn cluster feeding period last in general? 4 weeks? 6? 12?! Would be very motivational to think the end might be in sight!!! :)

Thanks

Hello OP I too had mega cluster feeds when DD was that age - once she went non-stop from 8pm-2am, had an hour long break and started again till 9 am, at which point she proceeded to sleep on me so I couldn't move anyway!

You're doing brilliantly, and it WILL get better - by 6 weeks we were getting smiles AND she was doing 5 hour chunks of sleep at night.

Hang in there

Oh and we had the tight jaw as well - he hardly opened his mouth at all. That's got better by itself in the last couple of weeks - he isn't a big baby and I think he just needed to grow.

Mega feeds calmed down at around 4 weeks for me. Good luck

Poor you,

Hang on in there for sure and brace yourself for the growth spurts. My first baby and I took fully six weeks to establish a good feeding relationship, we were down to two night feeds by nine weeks. I was in my own private he'll, and wrote down every last detail in some sort of bid to "do" something. I was forever trying to get him to sleep earlier, or later, or wake him up for a feed or trying to nudge the next feed back.

It actually seems crackers to me now but it really was because I felt I should be doing something, that I was the one who had to know what he needed. I kept taking advice.

You can trust your baby to signal that she's hungry. At the moment, she is working to establish supply and she will.find her own happy pattern of feeding and sleeping. You can give her clues by taking her off to bed with you at night, and letting everything be busty and bright in the day. She'll eventually fall into her rhythm. Neither of mine felt much like retiring for the night before about 9 until they were crawling and being busy in the day, though I know lots of people do the 7 o'clock bed thing. My second baby had witching hours for the first six weeks, she'd start about 9 and go for hours, which gradually reduced til they didn't happen. My first baby was like yours - feeding clear through the night for the first few weeks. Nothing I did to either of them seems to have meant they are both good sleepers now and we bf full term. As long as your baby looks healthy, gains weight and fills her nappy you are.doing fine. And it does feel horrendous at first but this stage is over in the blink of an eye

She started feeding every hour since 4.40pm....seems to be gaining momentum. After the last feed (10.30-11pm) she fell asleep on me. Then started squirming and grisling until I put her on the other side at 11.30.....
Did everyone else's baby suddenly seem really angry and upset during periods of cluster feeding??? She seems to get angry, grisly, head butting my chest/boobs, biting her hands, arching her back like she has wind etc

MW today said if she is cluster feeding for hours then consider one bottle/60mls formula (don't have any expressed milk in fridge at present) to fill her up and get myself a few hours break to sleep/recharge and let my milk 'restock'
She said nipple confusion was "bollocks" and that it wouldn't affect my milk supply as I would be feeding tons throughout the rest of the 24hours and that one little bottle of. It saves my sanity and keeps me BF 99% of the time is worth it in her opinion...... I feel so guilty though to be contemplating it..... :(

Anyone? :(

Have you tried tried in breast /bottle feeding section? Under feed the world. You might get an answer there...

We are 5 weeks in so I feel I can offer some more recent advice. We also had no idea what night and day were until the last week or so (even now just get out and walk walk walk as it helps.... The pram handles will hold you up if you feel like falling asleep mid stroll and I 'd advise walking to get caffeine). We fed every two hours at two weeks. The feed was about 15 minutes for me (although the NCT mums reckon it's 40 minutes or so average for them). The problem for us was the settling....15 minutes feed, hour and a half to get her back off to sleep and repeat 15 minutes later. Gaaaah.
We didn't need to (so far) but I'd contemplate a dummy to see if she just sucks for comfort. At the least it'll give your nipples a short break.
I found the EASY (Tracy Hogg) routine info useful and we're now feeding around every four hours: 6pm, 10.30, 2.30 and 7ish. Monday night we had SIX HOURS (in my deluded state I thought I'd forgotten a feed). We try and do three hours in the day which I prolong by walking walking walking (and the other good news is that I've met loads of people and lost almost all of my pregnancy weight from all the walking).

My dd is 7 weeks old, she fed constantly in the first few weeks, from 5pm till 11pm every night. I thimk it was to help get supply in. She has settled down a bit now. I have managed to get her to feed lying down, and second suggestions re eating chocolate, I took a packed lunch to bed with me! You are doing great!

OP some really basic questions - am no expert but - did you feel your milk come in (breasts as large and lumpy as after bad implants)? Do you feel your supply and let down is good? I remember in the first week (which may be comparable to your second due to tongue tie) DD just sucked and sucked and sucked my nipples raw, she definitely fed long after the breast was emptied. She was definitely sucking from instinct (to help establish supply?) and for comfort. But once my milk supply was established she would have periods, if only short, of being satisfied.

Second thing - are you winding thoroughly? it took me ages to realise how much winding DD needed. Lying her across my knee for gentle tummy pressure brought up some peachy burps, as did sitting her up, lifting her chin with one hand (extends and opens the airway) and rubbing her back with the other. But it took ages!

Agree with pp re day vs night - it took a good few weeks for DD to know which was which. Months really. Winter babies are hard I think because of the lack of natural light. Get out with her as much as you can (or sit by the window) during the day, that's what will set her circadian rhythm, ultimately.

And congratulations

Congratulations!

I've for a 12 week old and your post makes me think of me

Ivf pregnancy. Scary pregnancy due to previous miscarriage/ ectopic ... Horrid birth... Third degree tear and cut.... BUT it gets better. All of it. And I sort of wish I enjoyed the first few weeks more but I was in tears every day and scared of my forever crying newborn but he is amazing now. Bear with him - or her ( sorry I can't remember which and am on my phone). Babies have had a traumatic time too

Anything goes with a newborn. Ds was feeding every hour to start with. I struggled so much to breastfeed and we did introduce a formula feed at night (ds lost more than 10% of birth weight).My nipples were raw (ds also had minor tongue tie but he was jaundiced and two weeks early so struggled to latch) . We thankfully didn't experience nipple confusion offering formulae (which can happen) and actually after two weeks Breastfeeding was so much better and easier and ds refused the bottle so is now exclusively breastfeed. He even (sometimes!) sleeps through the night. You will get there. Don't make any plans other than those necessary or as someone else said fresh air. I am still rarely dressed before midday although some of the classes I like are in the morning so we have to try now and then.

Someone else mentioned a dummy. They are life savers and i was so against them but check with the tongue tie specialist first .

I am sure it will get easier soon - getting to know your baby take time and being sleep deprived makes everything seems so much worse

Oh... And glad your
Midwife said nipple confusion was rubbish. Sometimes I think these things are introduced to persuade women not to bottle feed but i can
Imagine for a baby it may be confusing to swap between bottles, nips and dummies hence I just did the one formula feed at night . I don't think one would hurt. Do what is best for you. That said I do express now rather than formula if I have to go out and in fact ds likes the tommee tippe bottles and refuses avent
Bottles.

One more post... If your baby is grissly and you think it is wind you could try infacol before a feed to help . It helped us in the early days... We didn't use it for long. Gripe water is also good and I don't think either hurt

How did you go last night OP? I was actually feeding when you were, but I've learned to do it while barely waking up so I can go back to sleep again ASAP!

Yes. Both of mine had The Rage for the first few weeks of feeding. I put it down to a couple of things. Firstly, they've had nine months of effort-free feeding and have never felt hunger before, so technically, these feelings of hunger are the worst things that have ever happened to them. Also, particularly if tongue-tied, they're suddenly having to work really hard just to stop themselves from feeling hungry. This is why newborns will prefer a bottle over a boob in the early weeks - little work, rapid satisfaction! Secondly, most newborns are a little refluxy in the early weeks as the pyloric sphincter matures. Again, they've never experienced any kind of discomfort before, so heartburn is going to be like torture, hence rage (that she'd get with a bottle of formula as well as a boob).

WRT giving formula...it's a personal decision, and one feed to give yourself a break isn't going to upset the apple cart. However, a midwife suggested formula to me to 'give myself a break' with DS1, so I did. We BFed very successfully for 17 months, even when I was back working FT, but I still wish I'd never given him that 3oz of formula. Yes, it's stupid and irrational, but that's how I felt, and still feel, about it. I had exactly the same issues with DS2 regarding cluster feeding and tongue tie and knew that, in the scheme of things, it was such a short, short period of time I'd be able to tough it out, and I did, all while managing a two year old as well.

Did you try feeding lying down and co-sleeping? If you're trying to put her down between feeds, that's what is going to be rousing her and making her want to feed again and again. If you can feed her in situ then lie down with her so you're still in contact, it honestly makes all the difference. I wish I'd done it with my first!

Well, I was advised to give my baby a dummy so he could comfort suck and I could rest and restock and it worked out really badly for us and wasn't sorted til we dumped the dummy. I'm not sure it was nipple confusion - it was just thatwe needed to do the empty sucking to establish supply.

The current houy feed situation could be your first growth spurt and if it is it'll be more or less done by tomorrow night if not sooner. So if I were you I might wait til Friday and if it hasn:n't settled do the formula thing.

The kindest and best advice I got was to go to bed with the baby for a few days and watch boxsets and accept all tea and food offered by willing helpers. This helped establish supply and meant I got as much rest as possible
Is this an option for you?

last night was he'll :( she fed on and off between 5pm-6am then finally went down at 6am in her bed nest for 4 1/2 hours!!

DH Gave her 1 bottle of formula last night (I'd run out of expressed BM) at 2am after she'd been feeding constantly since 5pm in a vain attempt to get some rest but it just seemed to make her dazed and confused and then she vomited a few times over the next few hours..... Made me feel AWFUL and like I'd failed her as I should just ' man up' and go with the all night feeds...but I'd only had 4 Hours on and off during the day due to MW and HV visit so was knackered going into the night and just can't stay awake for 24 hours....feel like I'm in my own personal hell at 3 am when she just won't stop feeding. Feels like she's sucking on an empty boob!!!!!

Saw NCT/LLL Breastfeeding support person today who observed a feed. She said her latch is okish with me doing a bit of breast shaping to get her on better....but that she wasn't using her tongue properly though as she wasn't doing the whole 'suck, swallow' thing properly. She said baby is getting away with it at the moment because I have loads of milk (as result on constant feeding!) but that when my supply settles we could run into problems as she's not 'working' very hard at the breast at the moment....needs to learn how to use her tongue, which will improve in time anyway once her mouth is bigger etc.

I just need to be..

Sorry!

....to be able to get through the next month of sleep deprivation to wait for her mouth to grow!!!

Ps, tried consleeping- didn't work as I need to hold her too much to get her to latch properly (or close to it!) and then I need to sit up to wind her anyway so we can't just lie there and sleep...I end up disturbing her anyway.

Pps, yes my milk is fully in and I am already using infacol. Don't think she really struggles with trapped wind too badly as she is very chilled during the day...it's just at night when the feeding rage kicks in!!!

Just want to say, hang in there. It truly is hellish, these early weeks. 6 weeks is very often the turning point.

If I have one piece of advice, please don't let the feeding issue get to the point where it damages your feelings towards DD, DH or yourself. Truly, it's not worth it. It is so, so important to not lose sight of the whole family unit, and the whole baby and not get wrapped up in any ideas about bf perfection. I speak as someone who went there and regrets it bitterly.

With your pfb you have no knowledge of what comes next and how long things last for, and no faith that you are doing okay, and without that faith it's very easy to lose all perspective, especially when you're sleep deprived.

If you can, just do what it takes with whatever tools you have at your disposal (DH, dm, formula, takeaways etc) to make sure all three of you are keeping body and soul together. The rest, at this stage, is just detail. It will settle down, promise.

Good luck!

Bfeeding can be difficult and I wish I had known how difficult it could be. I expected it to be so lovely and easy and it would have helped knowing I might really struggle in advance. That said it does get easier. I promise!!! You've had some good support today from the Nct/LLL. I paid someone to come to my house when ds was ten days as I just couldn't venture out and it really helped so you've done the right thing there. They are experts!

I'm just up for a feed (ds is 12 weeks). He finds the nipple all by himself and latches on in the dark and it is like a tickle now!!! Over and done in 15 mins.

You have been through a traumatic experience (even a relatively straightforward birth can be traumatic) as well as baby's journey into this world whih must be so scary for them but you are doing brilliantly. You should be so proud of yourself for trying to give baby the best and one formula or two Won't hurt if it helps you get some rest so don't feel bad for trying. That said if your baby is struggling to work to breastfeed then bottles may not be too helpful in the long run as babies don't have to work so hard to get the milk but if that is what you have to do, then do you what is right for you (maybe switch formula brands if she was sick?).

I know I am so pleased I persevered but the long sleep deprived nights make everything seem so impossible but as I say it will get better. I can't give any advice other than carrying on... Slowly the feeding will get easier and you will look back on this crazy time. Keep coming back here for support. Mumsnet is amazing and someone will always be here!

Poor you. Two weeks is a bit of a blur to me, but it seemed like mine both were feeding non-stop once the sun set.

I agree that 6-8 weeks is a turning point - and, she'll start smiling. That really makes such a difference.

Did everyone else's baby suddenly seem really angry and upset during periods of cluster feeding??? She seems to get angry, grisly, head butting my chest/boobs, biting her hands, arching her back like she has wind etc

Yes, this I remember so well. Their digestive tracts are changing very rapidly at 2 weeks, acquiring good bacteria - hence the gas. You just have to get through it.

Well done OP - you're doing all the right things.

Just a few thoughts in case they may help:

When feeding lying down, have you tried her with her on her back and you sort of up on one elbow, latching her onto, for example, your left boob if she's to your right, and vice versa? You can get a nice deep latch that way, a bit like rugby ball. She may fall asleep there then you just need to lie down next to her. Again, it's going to be the putting her elsewhere after a feed that will be waking her up and making her want to feed more.

Alternatively, have you tried swaddling her? If you swaddle, then feed, then put her down still tightly wrapped, she'll still be warm and smell like you and still feel like she's being held and may stay asleep. The addition of white noise may help.

Also, are you doing breast compressions while feeding? This can help milk transfer and speed up a feed. Hold the boob you're feeding from and squeeze-release (about two seconds for each) throughout a feed.

Do you have to wind her? Are there pukey consequences if you don't? It's not a given that you have to wind, although I can understand with a TT baby she might be taking in a lot of air. But it's only an issue if she has obvious relief after a burp.

Just a few thoughts which may or may not help. You're doing fab

Good morning, and I hope today is a better day for you both.

Re feeding lying down, it is definitely worth giving it a try again when your baby is a bit bigger and more mobile. It makes it all seem more bearable when you can at least close your eyes.

Someone on here once said to me that even though it is hard to so at the time, you should try and cherish the night feeds of just you and the baby together in the depths of the night, as it will go so very quickly, and is a very special time.

Please don't feel guilty about a bottle of formula. I think there is a real lack of knowledge and education about anything other than all or nothing with regards to bf in the UK, which leads to lots of women feeling guilty and like they are failures. Mixed feeding is a perfectly viable option. I genuinely believe that many many more babies would be bf for far longer if their mothers 'allowed' themselves to let their baby have even one formula feed a day to take the pressure off, have a longer stretch of sleep, you could have it as a special moment with daddy. A happy, enough sleep to function mummy is worth much more to your baby than being exclusively bf.

I think there is a real lack of knowledge and education about anything other than all or nothing

I do think there is a real lack of knowledge and education, but I disagree it is 'all or nothing'. Both the OP and I were advised to give formula by NHS midwives as a management strategy for cluster feeding - that's definitely not 'all or nothing'.

A common theme on this thread, though, is you're just not told about cluster feeding in antenatal classes. Perhaps if there was more (any!) information given about this antenatally, along with management strategies, it would not lead to the widespread 'failure' of breastfeeding for so many women. Cluster feeding is the reason so many women erroneously believe they're not producing enough milk, and therefore give up. Cluster feeding is the cause of the hideous sleep deprivation and loss of all sense of night and day which new, first-time mums think is never going to end, and therefore give up.

I know they don't want to put women off trying to breastfeed by letting on as to how hard it can be in advance, but I do think an element of forewarned is forearmed is needed.

I TOTALLY agree Elphaba.

Another suggestion, albeit a pricy one, is a 'sleepyhead'. Look on john lewis and google. It is £149 and is like a mattress dinghy thing which can later be transferred into a cot when you make the transition from Moses. It basically makes the baby feel cocooned. Like swaddling (another great idea). You can also co sleep safely and fed the baby without getting out of bed. I never got the hang of feeding lying down comfortably (although managed this morning doing it so I guess I just need more practice) but the sleepy head has worked for so many people. I learned about it too late and ds was getting quite big so I returned it as I didn't think I would get 2 months use of it.

Just a thought. Not sure if it has been mentioned here but squirting breastmilk on baby's blanket or sheet makes it smell of you. I did that to settl ds in his Moses as he hated it to start with. Mind you. You've been right next to your mummy's heart for 9 months in warm water being fed, why would you suddenly want to sleep In a Moses basket on your own :-)