to think that you shouldn't fake religion to get a school place?

[Carrierpenguin]

A friend of mine became catholic when she married her husband, then they split up. She hadnt been religious beforehand, but now she's chosen to go to church every week for the last year in order to get her ds into the local catholic school. She's told me that she doesn't believe in all that 'mumbo jumbo' but the church school gets the best results locally. I understand that everyone wants the best for their children, but this seems a bit disingenuous.

I suppose it's open to all - if you're willing to fake religion you can get into the best school, I suspect that the good results are due to parental influence as you have to be very keen to commit to two years of Sundays at church, presumably this filters out parents who don't care about education, whereas the secular schools cater to all.

I'm not against faith schools or the system, if it gets great results then why not I suppose? Aibu to think faking religion is not ethical though?

How on earth can a 5 year old be religious? How can they be expected to make a balanced, informed and objective decision when they still believe in Father Christmas?

writtenguarantee, are you being deliberately facetious? I did what I thought was going to get me in to the good school. Just as my mum (and me now) did when she made me go to mass every week. It's the same principle. I don't believe you truly missed that point.

Are you telling me you can't tell the difference? Absolutely everyone has the option of joining a drama group if they wish.

You really can't see the point I'm trying to make?

Well the school shouldn't be using the ability to participate in a bloody drama group as an entrance requirement either. You need money to pay for drama group, the ability to get there, you often need costumes and other stuff, you also need time that many young people won't have (e.g. Young carers).

Similarly, I get really irate by HE admission practices which prioritise applicants who can write stuff about the wonderful subject relevant trips abroad they've been on, or the excellent extra-curricular activities they've participated in, or the oodles of unpaid work experience they've gained, or other stuff. It totally rigs the system against the kids whose families were barely holding body and soul together (or failing) and who were busy working in fast food restaurants or other less 'impressive' activities. All you're generally doing is rewarding applicants for having had more opportunities in the first place.

Hak, you were admirably clear - the Hack and Hak on this thread are confusing!

The huge shortage of school places in many parts of the country (particularly cities) mean that faith selection distorts catchments even more - meaning that more and more kids fall into 'black holes' when it comes to local schools.

When all schools are oversubscribed and have waiting lists, it's not just parents doing what they feel they have to to get into the best school, it's any school that isn't way outside the child's own community - or any school at all.

Birth rates have been increasing for years but there hasn't been a corresponding increase in school places. It's quite disastrous for a lot of people.

Where I live, it's pay (either private school or ridiculously priced house close enough to a semi-faith-selective school to get in under the handful of places that aren't church kids or their siblings) or pray.

Or cross your fingers and get ready to drive your kid to another borough and have them educated so far from their local community that it will affect their whole school experience - extra-curricular activities, local friends, etc.

my local secondary school has over 300 empty places
it has a "Christian Ethos"

The drama group I joined was part of my school. I was also part of the church drama group. All free.

Also my mum was a single mum, working all the hours god sent (!) in two jobs to feed and clothe us and keep a roof over our heads.

I don't know if I'm being over sensitive and getting the wrong end of the stick, CalamitouslyWrong, but I get the impression you think I was privileged? I can tell you now, I was not and never have been. Life was a struggle growing up. Hence my mum wanting us to get the best education so we could better ourselves.

Argh THIS - 'In the criteria for the oratory, they take 2 points off the application because I didn't get him baptised until he was 8 months old (full points for baptism before 6 months old)'

Fuck me, I thought I'd heard it all but that truly takes the !!! How in God's name (no pun intended) does being baptised 2 months later someone 'diminish' the fact of your baptism??! Been to a few in my time and at no point have I heard the priest say 'welcome to our world but you're a bit less than than you would have been if you'd got here a wee bit more sharpish...

I have not attended Church in my life - except a few weddings and fewer funerals. My daughter attends Catholic School. I did not lie to get her into that school. In fact most pupils are not Catholic. Great school though ;)

MunningCockery I kid you not. It's written in the admission criteria plain as day. It's how they whittle down the applicants.

I feel quite angry thinking about it.

Apparently though (and this has been in the BBC news recently) you can gain points by taking on jobs in the church: flower arranging or cleaning - all voluntary of course - for extra points.

I have not attended Church in my life - except a few weddings and fewer funerals. My daughter attends Catholic School. I did not lie to get her into that school. In fact most pupils are not Catholic. Great school though ;)

Er good for you?

I'm not envious of people with schooling options oh no

JassyRadlett Im not sure why you have seemingly scorned my post. It was posted because OP seems to think the only way to get your child into a Catholic school is to lie. That concept is simply not true!

Your point is....what?

ARGH: you were more privileged than a lot of kids. You might not be middle class or have rich parents or whatever, but you had opportunities that many other children don't have.

You had a mother who cared about your education and worked her arse off so you could have opportunities. Not all children have that. You could go to drama club at church and school. That means you got actually get there (unlike, for example, children in rural areas with crap and expensive public transport provision who may not be able to get to the relevant church hall or go to after school clubs). Or you were able to give up some of your lunchtime because you weren't queuing for pretty much the whole time for your only meal of the day. And you didn't have other responsbilities, like caring for disabled parents or looking after your siblings, so you had the time.

Why should a state school ever use factors over which children and young people have no control (most of which boil down to who their parents are) to discriminate against them?

You were privileged- you had parents who were organised and aware and knew how to work the system. So you had an advantage over most of your peers. You illustrate perfectly the unfairness of the system.

"t. It was posted because OP seems to think the only way to get your child into a Catholic school is to lie. That concept is simply not true!

If it an oversubscribed Catholic school the only way in is to lie or to be a Catholic..........

Hakluyt I am sure there are other schools in your area if the school of your choice is oversubscribed? Most areas have several schools to choose from. Not everyone gets their first choice? If a catholic, Christian, certain language, grammar, or whatever school is what you feel is best for your child and you don't get it within your area you could always move? lots of people do....

Argh: 'my mum was a single mum'

Hakluyt 'you were privileged - you had 'parents'' who...'

Parking the fact it seems a bit off to 'correct' someone else's stated reality of their childhood ('it was a struggle'), if one is going to go down that road I can't help but think the least one could do is, erm, be accurate in the factual bits that a poster has written?

Just a thought

Or just say to the schools "you can't discriminate against non-believers in a state school any more"

Problem solved.

"Argh: 'my mum was a single mum'

Hakluyt 'you were privileged - you had 'parents'' who...'"

Argh- I apologise. I read the fact that your mother was a single parent but typed parents- brain fail.

BackonlyBriefly As I have already stated we are not religious yet had no problem enrolling my dd into a Catholic school therefore I cannot accept that Faith schools discriminate against non believers - can you?

Of what discriminatory practice would you accuse a non faith secondary school who had no space for your child?

bleurgh. Education and religion should be two completely separate things. The fact they aren't is why we intend to home school....or move to france....

IceBeing Education and religion are definately two separate things. Whatever makes you think they are not? I have two children in non faith schools - because that suits them. I have one child in a faith school - because that is better suited for her. You are well within your rights to home educate if you feel that is in your child's best interest.

I am not sure why you have mentioned moving to France in the context of this thread but hey if that works for you and your family go for it!

"BackonlyBriefly As I have already stated we are not religious yet had no problem enrolling my dd into a Catholic school therefore I cannot accept that Faith schools discriminate against non believers - can you?"

Because, presumably , the school concerned was not over subscribed. What are the admissions criteria in case of oversubscription?

Hakluyt I am sure there are other schools in your area if the school of your choice is oversubscribed?

You're joking, right? Have you read the thread?

Where I live, there is a shortage of 200 reception places every year. My area is not unusual. Many children miss out on a reasonably local education while kids are driven in from other boroughs because of faith selection.

You'll forgive me if your post of 'I got my kid into a faith school with no problems' may sounded quite smug and dismissive to parents struggling to get their children into any school at all, despite having schools on their doorstep.

Hakluyt I take your point about having a mother who cared enough to push us in the right direction. However I think the word privileged is over the top. My sister is 6 years older than me, and from as young as I remember she was the one looking after me after school and at weekends due to my mum working. It also took my mum a while to get her act together and throw my physically, mentally and emotionally abusive father out. So my younger years were not pleasant to say the very least. I could tell you stories that would make your hair curl ( something about my father setting up my sister at aged 16, which landed her in a Cairo jail for 2 days, where he left her alone and denied knowing who she was. And my father bringing a child molester to our home but to name 2.)

So I really do not appreciate being called privileged.