to think that you shouldn't fake religion to get a school place?

[Carrierpenguin]

A friend of mine became catholic when she married her husband, then they split up. She hadnt been religious beforehand, but now she's chosen to go to church every week for the last year in order to get her ds into the local catholic school. She's told me that she doesn't believe in all that 'mumbo jumbo' but the church school gets the best results locally. I understand that everyone wants the best for their children, but this seems a bit disingenuous.

I suppose it's open to all - if you're willing to fake religion you can get into the best school, I suspect that the good results are due to parental influence as you have to be very keen to commit to two years of Sundays at church, presumably this filters out parents who don't care about education, whereas the secular schools cater to all.

I'm not against faith schools or the system, if it gets great results then why not I suppose? Aibu to think faking religion is not ethical though?

I really do not understand why people do this

Really? Have you read the replies to this thread? What don't you understand?

I went to Sacred Heart High School, a former convent, an all girls school run by nuns.

We learned about all other faiths in our RE classes. We all grew up to be normal women most of us anyway

OK. Please would the supporters of faith schools tell me how they would react to my hypothetical change in the law. In My Glorious Rule, when you register your child, you have the option to state your faith. You don't have to, but you can. And if you do, you can apply to schools of that particular faith and have the preferential treatment your faith gives you if it is oversubscribed. But you do not have the option of applying to non faith schools, unless there are vacant places, even if you live next door to one.

Happy with that?

Surely this whole issue begs the question...why are faith schools so oversubscribed ?

I am one of those parent and I resent having to do it but I have no choice as I live in inner London. But I am a parent and I do the best for my child. Do you think that the church cares if I believe or not when I participate in the life of the church?! They are accepting and perhaps you too should be.

I have no problem with faith schools, BUT they shouldn't be allowed to select pupils on anything other than the distance critera (beyond SEN and LAC of course)

If parents want the school for either its religious ethos or its good results they will select that one. If they don't want a religious school they can pick another school.

Strangely where I live the faith schools are under subscribed, but the outstanding community primary is vastly oversubscribed.

Happy with that?

I am of course but I am not a supporter of faith schools.

as with any system that advantages some people, those people who are advantaged are happy with the status quo. Nothing new here.

"So how come they have always had such a good rep? Probably something to do with the religious ethos."

Yeah. The ethos of excluding people you don't approve of. Fantastic example to set to children.

I have to admit I'd fake it. DH is catholic and the children are baptised but not regular church goers due to work and not feeling the need to. We're in the Scottish school system so go to nearest one but in an area where it's a rubbish school or a catholic one who determined by attendance then my atheist bottom would be warming the pews weekly.

I really am interested in how the "fake it" brigade explain the situation to their children.

Beryl
Its called a vicious cycle
motivated parents take more care of their children so they do better
so the school they are at gets better results
so more motivated parents try to get their kids to that school
so it does better

the school next door picks up the less motivated parents
and year on year becomes worse

the motivation could be god, it could be the 11+, it could be money
but the difference is to do with the parents
NOT the random segregation method of the school
or what goes on inside its walls

Hakluyt
I really am interested in how the "fake it" brigade explain the situation to their children.
In exactly the same way as you made your kids sit the 11+ even though you do not believe in it.

Because its the only way to get the best possible education for the child you love.

raltheraffe Tue 11-Nov-14 16:54:23

'I really do not understand why people do this. I am the total opposite, I attend Church but am sending ds to a non-faith school as I want him to mix with a more ethnically diverse group.' Do you mean - literally - that you don't 'understand why people do this' simply as your sentiment is different?

FWIW, it is a cracking sentiment and one I share (am not a fan of faith schools for many reasons including that one), however... here's the weeny issue with what is a fine 'sentiment'. As per the XYX posts here and out there in RL, for many many people in many many areas it is a luxurious sentiment and way out of reach as the ideal of a well-performing state with an equal intake frequently just does not exist. It is that simple so I'm with ARGH on not understanding why you 'do not understand it'

This might help you 'understand it' a bit more (if the many factual posts on here haven't for whatever reason) Simple but stark (factual) option in many areas of inner London: A) do whatever you can to get your child into a school you know gives them the best shot at a decent education/future and in a safe pastoral environment; OR B) know that their Plan B is a v shitty comp that needs metal detectors. I don't find it that hard to understand TBH.

I have to admit I'd fake it. DH is catholic and the children are baptised but not regular church goers due to work and not feeling the need to. We're in the Scottish school system so go to nearest one but in an area where it's a rubbish school or a catholic one who determined by attendance then my atheist bottom would be warming the pews weekly.

you do have a choice. you don't have to lie or deceive. Keep in mind when you do that, you are denying a seat to a child who parents are legitimately Catholic.

Out of curiosity, what's the difference between lying about religion and lying about your address other than the probability of being caught?

I don't understand where this false equivalence with academically selective schools comes from. We all want what's best for our but in one case parents get their child into a school by deception and the other (writing the 11+ for example) does not.

"Hakluyt
I really am interested in how the "fake it" brigade explain the situation to their children.
In exactly the same way as you made your kids sit the 11+ even though you do not believe in it.

Because its the only way to get the best possible education for the child you love."
Eh? I understand why they do it! I don't understand how they explain the necessary lies to this children.

but there is no "lying"
its "we have to do this, keep your phone out of sight of the vicar"

sparechange you can only have one baptism. It's right there in the creed.

All the Catholic schools round here are crap the CofE one is amazing tho - not because it's a church school but because it has maintained the high standards expected when they opened in the 1700s

"denying a seat to a child whose parents are legitimately Catholic"

That's rather assuming you think it's a legitimate/fair system.

I feel every child is equally deserving of a place at any school. Those children with additional needs deserve to have first choice and fortunately they do (at least in theory) After such considerations it's all equal as far as I can see.

Schools, in partnership with churches, may have their own hoops to jump through, but it's just up to families to see if they can jump through one of them to meet the admissions criteria of a school they'd like for their DC

(I realise this may sound a bit cynical but I've had a few hours sitting in pews or elsewhere to consider the situation!)

In Ireland it's the new non denominational schools that are hugely over subscribed.

Ah. So you make your children complicit in hypocrisy and lies. Not for me, I'm afraid.

Leaving aside the whole hypocrite/not a hypocrite debate for a moment, what's the evidence that faith schools actually have better results? I don't know what the national stats are (if indeed they're available), but looking at local schools, the evidence is patchy. Here we have one Catholic secondary school that does really well and is oversubscribed, and another Catholic secondary school that does badly and is very undersubscribed.

We have a C of E primary that does well, but no better than any number of ordinary community primaries. And two Catholic primaries, both of which do OK but not spectacularly. The one I know best has fluctuated in terms of Ofsted/league table results in recent years, but it tends to attract a middle-class intake because it's a feeder school for the good Catholic secondary.

I tend to think that this whole business about faith schools doing better is either a myth or at best a self-fulfilling prophecy (i.e. concerned parents send their kids there because they think they're better schools).

Faith schools don't do well. Selective schools do well, for obvious reasons. And oversubscribed faith schools are selective. Undersubscribed faith schools don't do any better than any other school in the same catchment.

My DC are exceptionally honest Hak - we all make choices of how to respond to the environment/opportunities around us.
I think the experience just adds to the DC's awareness of this reality and hence has the spin-off benefit of being quite educational

I did not literally mean I do not understand. Having gone to a faith school myself I am aware some people fake religion to get in as they often get better academic results. I just think I missed out on learning about other religions and am also uncomfortable with young children being taught the Bible as fact. I would rather my son makes a choice on whether he wants to have a faith or not when he is old enough to make an informed decision. I would hate to shove my religious views on him.

As Talkin so eloquently described it's the oversubscribed and hence competitive/selective nature which is exactly your "self-fulfilling prophecy" hackmum

Hakluyt

as soon as I was old enough to ask questions such as "I hate mass, why do I have to go? Why why why why why mum? Please, I don't want to go it's boring" she told me we were going to mass because it was going to get me into the good school. She asked me what I would prefer. I said "good school please mum" and went to mass.

She asked me not to tell anyone, and I didn't.

It's similar to me joining the drama group in my secondary school in order to help me get a place in the cardinal Vaughan. Thought if I did extra curricular activities it would help my chances. Also the only reason I did my confirmation.

When my boy is old enough I am going to be honest. Plain and simple.