to think that you shouldn't fake religion to get a school place?

[Carrierpenguin]

A friend of mine became catholic when she married her husband, then they split up. She hadnt been religious beforehand, but now she's chosen to go to church every week for the last year in order to get her ds into the local catholic school. She's told me that she doesn't believe in all that 'mumbo jumbo' but the church school gets the best results locally. I understand that everyone wants the best for their children, but this seems a bit disingenuous.

I suppose it's open to all - if you're willing to fake religion you can get into the best school, I suspect that the good results are due to parental influence as you have to be very keen to commit to two years of Sundays at church, presumably this filters out parents who don't care about education, whereas the secular schools cater to all.

I'm not against faith schools or the system, if it gets great results then why not I suppose? Aibu to think faking religion is not ethical though?

Good luck ARGH AHHH

Hope it goes well for you

I will take ds along to church with me when he is old enough to understand it. I will explain to him why I believe in God, but why people like Dawkins don't and will also explain to him what Muslims, Sikhs etc believe.
Once he can make a decision whether or not to follow a faith I will support him in that.
I am very uncomfortable with religion being forced on young kids. My mum was a Sunday School teacher so I got Christianity taught to me from as young as I can remember and I believed it all as fact as no-one explained to me when I was young that it was a belief system rather than a proven fact.

writtenguarantee it does happen that you end up with areas where there is almost no provision for one sex, as in my hometown where there were no even semi-decent schools for boys unless they went to private or grammar schools in other districts. That may be more unusual than having no good non-denominational schools, I don't know - never really looked into it tbh.

Hakluyt that sounds like a much better system all round actually! (Well presumably there'd be logistical differences like varying numbers of religious people each year, not enough members of some faiths to form schools etc, but assuming that could be overcome.)

Or we could have Atheist Schools where regular attendance at any religious institution automatically barred you from entry, and instead of RE there were readings from God Is Not Great and The God Delusion, to even things up

Hack

'Leaving aside the whole hypocrite/not a hypocrite debate for a moment, what's the evidence that faith schools actually have better results?'

I don't think there is any evidence that macro they (collectively and automatically) do do better; the issue is more one of at ground level in any given area. Again, London (which may be at the more extreme end of examples for all I know) is my only experience but in that experience it is beyond clear that in certain areas there are outstanding faith schools - the ones that Cameron et al blag their precious darlings into - or very shit schools. And for those parents in that area that is their 'choice' and their dilemma.

Ralth I concur with your views on bible being taught as fact, ditto 'shoving' religious views on DCs but if it's that and a great education and safe school vs. crowd control and the primary skill learnt being how to defend yourself then for me it's still a no-brainer. I'd rather have the discussion with my DCs about the bible and Darwin etc to contextualize those teachings than (best case scenario) them having a shit education or (worst case scenario) being beaten the shit out of. And nope before anyone asks, I wish that were exaggeration but in some places it's truly not

I live in one of the most deprived areas in NW England and my son is going to a normal comprehensive. If he gets bullied he will have to learn to defend himself. When he is 5 he can start Muay Thai classes, not to become a thug but to be confident in defending himself.

squoosh my area is the same, nearly all the schools are denominational - my friend's Catholic school was in practice made up of a large minority of Muslims because it was a mostly Arab neighbourhood and there were barely any secular/non-Christian schools In fact I can only think of one school that I can name off the top of my head that I'm sure isn't religious.

So there are ways to 'get around' the unfair system, but why not just make the system fair.

If you wanted to run a bus service and said "btw there'll be two queues at bus stops. We're only going to let Jews on if there happen to be empty seats no one else wants" you'd be told you can't do that.

Okay, the Jews could pretend to be Christian, but that wouldn't be an acceptable solution would it.

Thank you, juggling.

its going to be difficult as I said before I'm doing it on my own, I've spoken to the priest about my partner not being religious, and why I stopped going to mass, and why I'm back (I want my son to have the same education as me, I want him to attend the primary school I attended) so I've been upfront and honest which I think he appreciated.

Another snag is that I had my son baptised late. In the criteria for the oratory, they take 2 points off the application because I didn't get him baptised until he was 8 months old (full points for baptism before 6 months old)

infuriating, isn't it?

Hakluyt: "Faith schools don't do well. Selective schools do well, for obvious reasons. And oversubscribed faith schools are selective. Undersubscribed faith schools don't do any better than any other school in the same catchment."

Isn't that something of a circular argument, though? You could equally say the same of an ordinary comprehensive that is oversubscribed - it becomes selective because it has to select out of the numbers who apply for it. And usually it selects on proximity, which drives up house prices in the area, and thus excludes poorer people.

Proximity doesn't always mean selective. It can but doesn't always. Any criterion that requires parents to actively do something to get a place rather than just apply to the nearest school automatically makes the school "selective" and will push up results.

DS goes to a Catholic school, I'm an atheist. I've told him I don't believe it god but he reckons he does because his teacher does (he's 4).

The difference is, hack, that with faith schools (motivated, disproportionately middle-class) parents can undertake an activity that gets them preferential entry to the oversubscribed school. This leads to better results including around behaviour, which leads to more (motivated, disproportionately middle-class parents) taking the same actions and the 'good' school becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, finds it easier to recruit and retain staff, gets more fundraising revenue, etc.

It is ludicrous in 2014 that schools are allowed to select on religion. Schooling should be entirely secular.

Of course, Jassy- I was trying, and obviously failing, to say that!

I think you shouldn't be able to discriminate against children in the basis of their religion. The whole thing is a farce so I have no issue with those who fake it.

it does happen that you end up with areas where there is almost no provision for one sex, as in my hometown where there were no even semi-decent schools for boys unless they went to private or grammar schools in other districts. That may be more unusual than having no good non-denominational schools, I don't know - never really looked into it tbh.

of course it happens locally that parents of children of one gender have more choice than parents of children of the other gender. But the difference is that there is absolutely nowhere in the UK where a member of the C of E has less choice than me. Everywhere in the UK they have substantially more choice than me.

Of course, Jassy- I was trying, and obviously failing, to say that!

Hakluyt for what it's worth, I think you said it very clearly!

Whenever there are surveys of the best parts of the country to live in,
Hart, Test Valley, East Hampshire, New Forest and Winchester districts always come very highly
what do they have in common?

Co-ed non selective schools
nuff said

It's similar to me joining the drama group in my secondary school in order to help me get a place in the cardinal Vaughan. Thought if I did extra curricular activities it would help my chances. Also the only reason I did my confirmation.

it's not remotely similar unless joining a religion is similar to joining a drama group.

nice countryside, scenic perhaps must play a part as well.

it is for lots of people : drama you have to get involved, church you can mouth and mumble

"But the difference is that there is absolutely nowhere in the UK where a member of the C of E has less choice than me. Everywhere in the UK they have substantially more choice than me."

This is the crux of th matter.

And it is the point where supporters of faith schools put their fingers in their ears and start chanting "lalalalalalalala I can't hear you" Because it is indefensible.

writtenguarantee, are you being deliberately facetious? I did what I thought was going to get me in to the good school. Just as my mum (and me now) did when she made me go to mass every week. It's the same principle. I don't believe you truly missed that point.

TalkinPeace

there's a reason why London (and other dense areas) is exceptional. We live in London and there are probably 15 schools within walking distance from our house. All six schools we put on our application form were less than 0.5 miles. given the choice, of course, I want the best one for my DCs as does everyone else. Thus, there will be a lot of pressure at good schools and less at bad ones since a pool of people for 15 schools will compete for the handful of really good ones.

This doesn't happen in other places on account of density. If there is only 1 or 2 schools you could conceivably get your child to, parents from all parts of the spectrum are more or less forced to send their children to the very little choice they have.