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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think she has no right?!

89 replies

CheerfulYank · 04/11/2014 05:52

Long story but I'm so upset. :(

I'm American. My great great grandparents came over from Finland long ago (I believe around 1910 but I may be wrong). They settled around a lake far up north (almost Canada) and built a house which has now fallen into disrepair.

They had several descendents. We're all pretty well spread out now but a few remained in the little town. My grandmother moved a thousand miles away but always brought her DC (including my father) back to the little town for holidays. My father loved it and when he grew up moved back there with my mother and brother and me. I was eight at the time so it's pretty much where I grew up. We didn't live on the land but about ten miles away. A descendent (my grandmother's cousin) and his wife lived there. We visited them often and so many of my childhood memories involve the lake and swimming and boating.

My grandparents put up a cabin on the lake when I was ten and would spend a few months every summer there. After my grandfather died, my grandmother began spending more time there.

She died last Christmas Eve. She left some money in trust to pay for the cabin's taxes but it will not last long. I've talked to DH and when the fund runs out we (and a few of my uncles and my parents) will split the cost so we can all use it as we all have happy memories and it's what my grandmother would have wanted. I love it there and want my DC to have memories there as well.

The descendent who lived there when I was a child and his wife are long since dead, but his son built a house and has been living there for several years now. He has a grown son who has developmental disabilities who lives with him and it has always been known that there is money set aside so that he will be able to stay in the house when his parents are gone.

As far as I knew, the land was set up so that it could not be sold, and that any proven direct descendent of my great grandparents could settle there as long as they paid their portion of the taxes. Obviously this was an informal agreement as not EVERYONE could live there, but as far as I knew no one wanted to. It's been this way for years.

My mother just told me today that two "cousins" of my dad's (their fathers would have been my grandmother's first cousins, I don't know what that makes them to me) have decided that they are going to sell the land.

I just don't...I'm in shock. They've never, ever had anything to do with it. My parents and grandparents and this other descendent were the ones who paid taxes all these years and looked after the place. It means something to us. Our ancestors never intended it to be sold, ever. I'm in tears at the thought.

The woman leading the charge is a millionaire already. What does she want with it? It means nothing to her and there are people living on it.

Because of the town (it's a tourist spot) the land may be worth a million or maybe even two million dollars. But surely there are at least a hundred of us to split it, maybe more. To me, it's not worth it. I need money more than she ever has or will but I would never sell. I'm in tears at the thought.

Maybe I'm being precious. Maybe I'll get flamed. Maybe she does have the right, at least legally. But oh, it hurts. Just the thought.

AIBU?

OP posts:
CheerfulYank · 04/11/2014 15:43

Thank you Traviata, I will have a look!

Hearts I'm not sure if I've heard of that magazine but chances are my mom has...she gets all of them. :) I know she gets a Canadian on but I think it's called Hearth and Home or something.

OP posts:
HappyAgainOneDay · 04/11/2014 15:43

All I can add is that the grandmother's first cousins would be the OP's cousins thrice removed.

Eternal Yes, in the UK there is Possessory Title where people can live on land (in our case it was using a garage) for 12 years and, if the owner doesn't realise that you are using it or that he actually owns it, it can become yours.

We have two garages that we bought freehold and there was an empty one along the row. Our neighbour used one behind his house, not realising when he moved in that he had bought two, including the empty one along the row. We used it for 20 years or so .....

HeartsTrumpDiamonds · 04/11/2014 15:51

Unfortunately their website does not look as good as the magazine!

Cottage Life

Rainbunny · 04/11/2014 17:19

Well, as you already know you definitely need a lawyer. If your grandmother was the sole owner and died intestate, the rules of intestate inheritance in Minnesota will be in play - property would be inherited first by surviving spouse (if applicable), then shared by surviving issue (children) and their children would be next in line etc... Most states follow this principle for intestate property.

Whichever attorney you consult can give better advice on your situation obviously.

CheerfulYank · 06/11/2014 22:25

My dad attended a meeting with the two cousins (I'll call them Mary and Jane) today.

As it is, the lawyer is unsure (has to do more research) to see what the law says re division. It could possibly stop at the oldest surviving generation, of whom there are three left alive. One is my grandmother's sister, the others are her two cousins (they are brothers). If that is what they do, none of us will likely get anything as the two brothers are extremely territorial and...well, odd. One of them is the one I mentioned previously; he lives there and has a lot of keep out signs. If they get it they will most likely insist on being bought out at an exorbitant rate, or they will try to sell.

My great aunt is harder to call as far as what she will do. She's strange too, very woo. I haven't seen her since I was about 14 as she lives a thousand miles away. She might be persuaded to sell us her portion out of sentimental feeling for my grandmother.

The other option is that it goes to them and the next generation, of which my Dad and Mary and Jane belong.

According to the lawyer, if it goes this way, they will start by splitting the property into quarters for the four descendent of the original settlers. Then they will split it on down from there: one of the four is my great grandmother. Her quarter would be split into three, for her three children, one of whom (my great aunt) is still alive. The other two thirds will be divided among those descendents' children. So my dad, as one of four, would be entitled to a quarter of a third of a quarter. Confused

Mary and Jane are in worse position, as it turns out. One of the original four descendent had six children and they are from those children. Mary in particular, because she has a sibling, would only be entitled to a half of a sixth of a quarter.

So it looks as though they may drop it all together. I don't know. It all sounds complicated beyond belief and I wish they'd left well enough alone. :(

I also think it's odd that the lawyer didn't know which generation it'd be stopping with!

OP posts:
StrattersFeeear · 06/11/2014 23:41

It's besutiful up there, I have many, many find memories, and I do know how much you love it :(

A glimmer of hope then? Horrid, horrid, greedy woman.

StrattersFeeear · 06/11/2014 23:42

*beautiful

  • fond

My phone has The Rage for you, and is incoherent Angry

CheerfulYank · 07/11/2014 00:20

I appreciate your phone's furor on my behalf :)

My dad is (typical of the region) quite a plain talker and I guess he just asked straight out what their agenda is and why now.

They acted as though they just want it all "cleared up" for everyone's good but dad said they couldn't hide their disappointment at the near certainty that they'll not get anything they could sell.

I feel that, since they won't get anything anyway, they may tell the two old brothers to go for it, just out of spite. That way we won't get anything either. We don't have anything we could sell now anyway, not that we we would. Just a little cabin (basically a shack) that means the world to us. :(

I'm most concerned for my grandmother's cousin that lives there; he is too old to think of relocation and too old to worry about what would become of his sob with disabilities when they are gone. Angry

Tbh it doesn't really sit right with me that the oldest generation doesn't know that they are most likely entitled to it, even though they are an unpleasant bunch and we would lose it for sure (unless as I said, we can appeal to my grandmother's sister and pitch in and buy her out). It just doesn't seem right. But...I know the land was never intended to be sold; it's what everyone always said and certainly what my grandmother wanted.

What a mess!

OP posts:
CheerfulYank · 07/11/2014 00:21

*son

OP posts:
sykadelic · 07/11/2014 03:48

I'd think, given the way dying intestate works, that all living descendants (spouse and kids) at the time the land owner passed (whoever that is) are who own the land under those rules BUT because a transfer didn't occur you'd be doing probate now, which would include all living, of age, descendants.

If those people died that's where it gets tricky.

You could also, I'd think, claim ownership based on the payment of a property taxes.

In my State (midwest) you can find property records online for free. Or do a title search for a fee, which would give your attorney something to work with.

I would probably attempt probate to get the land transferred. Doesn't mean it needs to be sold. It could be put into many names or you could pay people off.

I wouldn't just drop it personally. Once they know you're not going to drop it they may do so.

steff13 · 07/11/2014 04:33

Here in Ohio property records are online for free, too. They are usually available on the county auditor's website.

I'm so sorry to hear this, I hope it works out.

My grandmother passed away last week, and she was predeceased by two of her three kids; my father and my aunt. Her will apparently divides her estate into thirds, one to represent each child. So, one third to my brother and me, one to my cousin, and one to my uncle. My cousin's husband has already been acting very secretively about the whole thing (he's the executor), which makes me nervous about what is going to happen.

ColdCottage · 07/11/2014 05:41

That is so sad.

I would look into the legalities of it and maybe set up a trust so that no one can try and do this in the future.

Good luck.

Also have you tried talking to them, maybe they don't realise what they are doing. Communication is a strong tool. Thanks

CharmQuark · 07/11/2014 06:02

Who has actually been paying the taxes? Who are the trustees of your grandmother's funds?

Of course you need a lawyer, but what makes you think that 2 relatives out of a huge clan can just sell the land from under everyone else?

AggressiveBunting · 07/11/2014 06:09

Another thing is that it's possible that rather than getting parcelled up, the whole estate will be owned jointly and severally by whoever it turns out that it legally belongs to. In that case, you want to hope for as many owners as possible as that way nothing will ever happen as everyone needs to agree to sell. However, sentimentality aside, it does sound like it's worked till now because not that many people wanted to live there, but now it's becoming more attractive. What happens if all the descendants want to stick a cabin on it- is that sustainable?

TheRealAmandaClarke · 07/11/2014 07:57

Stunning place.
I wish you well with your quest.

skylark2 · 07/11/2014 08:22

"We could do a family meeting with my family (uncles, aunt, cousins, etc) but tracking down everyone would take years."

Isn't she the one who would need to do this? She can't sell something she doesn't own. It's up to her to prove she owns it.

I agree with Ohmygrood, you need to talk to a local lawyer who can tell you what the situation is. Is there any reason that she might be able to claim to be the only one who owns it - for instance does she descend from the oldest sibling in each generation?

You have or can get proof as to who's been paying the taxes, right?

skylark2 · 07/11/2014 08:25

Sorry, my browser had a moment and I thought I'd read the whole thread... obviously things have moved on Blush

OwlCapone · 07/11/2014 08:26

I would look into the legalities of it and maybe set up a trust so that no one can try and do this in the future.

I was wondering this. Can the ownership be transferred to some kind of family trust?

Frustratedformil · 07/11/2014 09:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BrendaBlackhead · 07/11/2014 10:50

A branch of the family in Italy owned a house in a (now) very trendy coastal area. Unbeknownst to the others, someone sold to a third party, who moved in and of course said the property was legally theirs. And then the lawyers started making megabucks.

Well, the lawyers fees over the years exceeded the house's price by far. Some people had thrown in the towel and said they couldn't afford to keep on paying the lawyers, but funnily enough still thought they were in on the spoils. One relative paid another's fees for years, agreeing they would be paid back after the borrower's death. Nope, the borrower's heirs refused to pay so then it was off to other lawyers to deal with that.

It really was Jarndyce v Jarndyce from Bleak House.

CheerfulYank · 08/11/2014 18:52

Plot twist! Angry

Apparently someone in Greedy Cousin's family (on her husband's side, not our family) owns a large piece of land that abuts the lake property somewhere. So presumably if she could get a large enough chunk they could join the properties and sell at a huge price.

My dad seems to feel defeated already though I don't know why. We have a good chance I think. I think he just doesn't want to see it all developed either; even if we hang on to our chunk with the cabin it could be developed all around us with strangers. :(

The cabin itself is ours, free and clear, but it might not be able to be moved. We have no idea how the land will be divided but my dad says if there's any chance of them getting their hands on it he will go there in the middle of the night and burn it down. :( Which he would. I'm trying to tell him it doesn't work like that and they can't have it but he is panicking, I think, as much as he ever does. His parents scrimped and saved to buy that cabin and move it out there and it's breaking his heart.

I'm going to call my uncle once the kids are sleeping and really discuss this with him. Surely if we all stick together and keep our chunks together and refuse to sell, it'll come out all right?

OP posts:
CharmQuark · 08/11/2014 19:54

OP, post this in legal with a thread title asking for anyone with U.S property and land law experience.

Of course you can deal with it, you just need the right legal advice.

CheerfulYank · 08/11/2014 19:58

Thank you Charm, I will do that. :)

It's just all so upsetting and I'm so hormonal and keep breaking down in tears when what I need to do is screw my head on straight and get some real answers.

It's hard as I'm still very much a child to the older generation and I get the sense they are trying to "shield" me from things somewhat but for Heaven's sake I'm 32 and can talk to lawyers etc perfectly well. :)

OP posts:
JenniferGovernment · 08/11/2014 20:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SaggyAndLucy · 08/11/2014 20:10

Can you get the wills of the original owners, then the wills of their heirs and so on down to you and work out who had shares? Assuming your gran owned a share that will now be your dad's? If these cousins have a share it won't be huge surely?

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