....to ask what you think of white poppies (Remembrance-related)?

[PlumpingUpPartridge]

I had been dimly aware of the existence of white poppies but hadn't really given them much thought until DH mentioned them this weekend. I checked out the website and saw this:

linky

I liked this quote:

"In 1933 the first white poppies appeared on Armistice Day (called Remembrance Day after World War Two). The white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War - a war in which many of the white poppy supporters lost husbands, brothers, sons and lovers - but a challenge to the continuing drive to war. The following year the newly founded Peace Pledge Union began widespread distribution of the poppies and their annual promotion."

I am very happy to express my admiration and respect for those who died in wars, but I don't particularly want to see any more wars. I don't know what the alternative is, but I'd like to see more effort go into finding it.

I've been sifting through the threads and noticed some anti-white poppy feeling (along the lines of 'it's disrespectful'). I didn't grow up here so don't have childhood experience to guide me on this. Please can you tell me what you think of it and, if you think it's disrespectful, why?

I'm not a journalist by the way, just curious and trying to be impartial

babycham I completely agree with you.

I say this every year on this discussion, but if this annual argument (red/white/glittery 'novelty' poppy, people in the public eye being expected to wear them, different nationalities wearing poppies etc) proves anything, it is surely that you cannot force a symbol to mean a single, specific thing to everyone.

Symbols by their nature change over time, and mean different things to different groups of people, and in different cultural contexts, like the St George's Cross being both a neutral symbol of England and also a rallying point for the EDL and the like.

I'm Irish, and in Ireland and NI, poppies for Remembrance Day have an understandably complex cultural history. I never wear one, although I had great-uncles on both sides of my family killed and maimed in WWI (my father's uncle who lost a leg at Gallipoli lived until I was five, so I remember him quite well) and who fought in the 1916 Rising and the War of Independence - in some cases, these men were brothers fighting very different wars.

Which is a long way of saying that I don't think you can police the meanings and connotations of symbols like the poppy.

What a great post Babysham

I find the whole concept of the supposed glorification of war really odd. My grandfather was sent to France in August 1918 - poor scrawny chicken man, he came from a very poor family, and was 5'1" and about 115lbs - was wounded at a place called Proyart and sent to England to recover.
My father and uncle were in the RAAF, Dad was in Darwin when it was bombed, went to New Guinea and got dengue fever.
I knew none of this when any of them were alive. They never talked about it at all, ever.

I wear a white poppy. My father wore a white poppy. He was in WWII, nearly died twice, won medals for bravery (which he never wore). His mother was in the forage corps in WWI and died of the flu while still in service. He wore the White poppy in rememberance of her(he barely knew her really, he was just a toddler when that war started) and because he believed in the message 'never again'. I wear a white poppy for both of them and because I believe in that message too.

I wear both. I am very uncomfortable wearing a red poppy without a white one. I am from NI and the red poppy there is far from a simple symbol of remembrance meaning "never again". actually, I need to go and get a white Pippy today and hope that they haven't run out.

White poppies to me say "smug quasi-intellectual Guardian reader who thinks they are more socially and politically aware than the average citizen". To me, it's making the death of ordinary men and women into a political statement, which is inappropriate and disrespectful.

If you are anti-war, you have any time of the year to protest it in any number of ways. Not by strutting along the street showing off your objections in the form of a white poppy while everyone else is paying respect to the dead.

Well you sound hugely respectful...

"To me, it's making the death of ordinary men and women into a political statement, which is inappropriate and disrespectful."

And wearing a red poppy isn't? You just try being a politician and not wearing one and see what happens to you......

Oh, I don't disagree that there's a ridiculous expectation to be seen wearing a red poppy, and it's a real shame. But you can wear a red poppy without it being political (unless you're a politician/BBC presenter). But I don't think you can wear a white poppy without it being political.

It is political. War is political. Thatcher and Blair both became engaged in unnecessary wars to bolster their political positions.

All war is political. A lot of the remembrance stuff is designed to make us forget that. Read the war poets. The real ones, not the "some corner of a foreign field" sentimental tosh- the real stuff written by people who had actually fought. They knew.

Annie, you have no idea why each individual person wears a white poppy. Just because you think you can see inside poeple's heads and have the right to pass sneering judgement...is, believe it or not the real reason some people wear white poppies! To pay a mark of respect to those who gave up (or risked giving up) their lives for those who disagree with popular ideas and wars which affect the life (and death) of ordinary people. Many people who wear white poppies have lost pacifist relatives in our wars. Your snide words are a lie, and say much more about you than about them.

I think it is noteworthy that so many of the anecdotes in this thread are about people who fought in the two World Wars, and who are the ones who do/did not wear a poppy.

Miaw - I agree. I must admit my first thought when I see someone I don't know wearing a red poppy is that there's a good chance I'm looking at a person who doesn't think but just goes with the flow.

YeGodsAndLittleFishes - fair enough. I'm sure people have their own reasons. But the OP asked what we though when we saw people wearing them, so I'm telling you. My opinion is based on the ranting of shouty people I've seen on the TV who pontificate about their beliefs WRT war as if no-one else had ever bothered to consider the wider issues.

I appreciate that people who wear white poppies IRL may not share their views, and I am drawing on a small sample to form my opinion.

My opinion is only that at the end of the day - the opinion of one person, and doesn't really count for anything.

Yes, Dido, but we're remembering those we lost, perhaps that is also part of it. Perhaps those vetarans wish to put the fighting behind them, forget it and get on with living the life they all fought for. Perhaps it is a bit much that we should expect them to give up even one day a year for the rest of their lives to be taken back to that hell. Whatever their reasons, they have a right to a free choice about it. Doesn't mean that some or the rest of us can't use a poppy (red or white) and a minute or two's silence to pay our respects.

"My opinion is based on the ranting of shouty people I've seen on the TV who pontificate about their beliefs WRT war as if no-one else had ever bothered to consider the wider issues."

Really? When did you see shouty people on the TV ranting about white poppies? I must have missed it!

Annie I suppose I am just as guilty then, in choosing to buy a poppy but not wear it. Perhaps if more people were to wear a white poppy for their own reasons (just as there has been a resurgence of more people wearing red poppies for their own reasons in recent years) that would dilute the shoutiness and stop it being called just one thing.

I think I'll start to wear a white poppy. I wish I had worn one on Vienna day! (That didn't even occur to me!)

There was one on Saturday morning, on some chat show. The other panellists were having a polite conversation, but he kept going off-topic and bleating about the ethics of war. Which is a fine topic and worthy of discussion, but not what the piece was about. And I saw another one a couple of years back. Is it beyond comprehension that with the infinite number of channels and many minutes in the day we may not always be watching TV at the same time? How odd that you think it necessary to cast doubt on whether I may be telling the truth. As I've said, it's just my opinion. Why does it matter?

I think if you want to wear a white poppy then it is fine, just do it on one of the other 364 days of the year!

If you see me wearing my red poppy, don't ever think I am going with the flow! I am wearing mine as a mark of remembrance to all those members of the Armed Forces who have been killed in the line of duty.

It's just if you have formed an opinion about white poppy wearers based on the way thy come across on TV, there must have a noticeable number of them and I was surprised I hadn't seen them. What channel was your Saturday morning one on? I'd like to watch it. I don't think I've ever seen a white poppy wearer on one of that sort of show. It's a shame if he screwed up- and I'd like to complain about him.

So what about the wearing of a white poppy for all those consciencious objecters who were unarmed and killed while stretchering off wounded troops, or who risked their lives to avoid taking any part in a war they believed to be unjust and avoidable? They have just as much right to be remembered, and they have also helped to shape the conditions our armed forces live in and the rules that govern them. Most people I know who are currently in the armed forces are grateful for what they did.

Sorry, Hakluyt, I don't know. I was on at my dad's house. It was called Saturday Morning Something, but sadly I can't remember what the Something was. And I don't know what channel it was. They were talking about topics including whether the UK should return historical treasures and whether war is unnecessarily glorified in the media.