to be completely confused - pro/anti choice

[ScarletFever]

I have ALWAYS considered myself pro-choice

and then this - remember that person Josie who is on the daily mail a lot, with her nhs boob job etc who has made a career of annoying people... who said

"i would have aborted my baby if it meant i could go on Big Brother"

Right - so I was like "oh you evil cow" etc......, but then it was pointed out somewhere, if you are pro-choice, then what difference does it mean if her reason is crap?

So, how do i get my head around it being 'ok to abort a disabled child, or if you are not ready for children, or even it is the wrong time (re career) to have a child' but not ok to abort a child for a 'celebrity' reason??

because women have a CHOICE hth :)

I'm. Sure there are also medical conditions that affect certain genders so wanting to have a particular gender is not always preference just something that means the difference between a healthy baby or one suffering from.a condition.

I prepare to be corrected though

Yes, I support women's right to choose to terminate a pregnancy because the foetus is the wrong sex. Because I support a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy for any reason, at any time, It's her body and her choice.

I think it's unfortunate that some women choose to terminate because they want a boy rather than a girl, but it's more important that every woman has the right to a termination on request. Because for all this woman-hating waa, blaaah, selfish bitches have abortions at 30 weeks because they want to go to a party, I don't think there has been one single proven case of post-24 weeks abortion for 'trivial' reasons. What there have been, and lots of them, is proven cases of women - and their foetuses - dying when termination of pregnancy would almost certainly have saved the woman. That's why it's important that women have access to safe, legal abortion on request.

Without having rtft (dangerous) I'm just musing - I am a (reasonably) devout Catholic, and have always thought/ hoped it's possible to be anti-abortion but still pro-choice.

Ie I think abortion is always morally wrong (though not necessarily always the most morally wrong thing to do in a given set of circumstances) but until everyone else spontaneously comes round to my way of thinking, am not hugely keen that my minority religious viewpoint should be imposed on everyone else, at the expense of the physical and mental wellbeing of thousands of women. Also not hugely keen to judge other people who do make that choice, as haven't done the mile-in-their-shoes thing.

(Except I would judge the woman the OP mentions, because WOW. And judgey pants need to be aired occasionally even for hopeless fence-sitters like myself.)

It's saying that almost half of women aged 30-34 that had an abortion in 2013 have had one previously?

The thing is that those stats don't give you the reasoning behind the terminations.

My friend terminated at 15, stupid schoolgirl error wrt contraception.
She terminated again at 26 ( a very much wanted baby) - medical reasons. So yes, she had a repeat termination, but it wasn't because she couldn't be bothered to use contraception.

Not all terminations are because women didn't use contraception. They are because of medical reasons, contraceptive failure, rape, child abuse etc.

I terminated because I had a double contraceptive failure.

We are women's biggest enemy at times. We are all ready to shout out about how we should be treated equally etc, fight together to make sure we get what we are rightly entitled to & owed, yet when it comes to terminations we turn on own, assuming that they were careless & couldn't be bothered to protect against unwanted pregnancy.

Pregnancy doesn't just result from not using contraception.

(I know several people who were adopted as newborns. None of them would rather have been killed pre-birth).
What a stupid, offensive thing to say

Here here! Beside which, I know of 2 people who have been adopted, who both wish they weren't!

ILovePud You are aware, aren't you, that late term abortions make up like, 1% of all terminations? Not many women get to term & think "it's Monday, I'm going to have a termination" MOST late terms are done because of medical issues. Believe me, when you are pregnant with an unwanted baby, you want it gone ASAP. You don't tend to dither around until your waters break & then decide it's not what you want, after all.

There can be fertility consequences following numerous abortions and the pro abortion lobby keep too quiet about it
There are fertility consequences following ONE termination.
There are fertility consequences following ONE pregnancy.
There are fertility consequences following operations for cervical cancer.
There are fertility consequences following all sorts of other operations & medical interventions.

Which shall we prevent woman having access to first?

No to mention that there are fertility consequences wrt waiting too long to start a family.

but it is sad that the first unwanted pregnancy didn't succeed in teaching the woman to be even more careful. Not all terminations happen because of unwanted pregnancies. I know 2 people who have terminated a much planned & wanted baby. One because she was very ill with PND after the birth of second child (fell pregnant within months of the birth) and she, her therapist & her dh feared for her mental health. And one because she had to have cancerous cells removed from her cervix.

So please, let's remember that there are other reasons for terminating a pregnancy, not just the failure to use contraception.

I think anyone that says abortions are the 'best thing' for the potential baby is kidding themselves. It may well be the best thing for the mother...but not the baby. Until the baby is born, what is best for mum is all that matters. Otherwise you are reducing woman to incubators.

Who are you arguing with? No one in this thread is saying unborn lives matter more than the woman's

WalkinginMemphis - I think anyone that says abortions are the 'best thing' for the potential baby is kidding themselves. It may well be the best thing for the mother...but not the baby.

I think a woman should have the choice not to be pregnant up to birth but the fetus should be removed and put in an incubator at Around 24 weeks And who will look after all those babies? You? And you realise you are forcing a woman to carry & give birth at 24 weeks...so therefore reducing her worth to nothing more than a walking talking incubator.

I think you can be pro choice but still hold the opinion that a termination to go on Big Brother is a tad frivolous! She has put it out in public, so I guess people will have their views on it. Besides- a BB birth, imagine the ratings and the tabloid interviews etc Girl has no sense of priorities, obviously!

Yes, I would completely and utterly discount Josie Whatshername as 'proof' that selfish bitches have late abortions for silly reasons. ISTR, for one thing, that her pregnancy was not that advanced ie she would have been terminating it well within the legal limits anyway. And secondly, she didn't terminate. She may not be a very sensible person (what I have read about her suggests to me someone who is a bit immature and may have some MH issues - to be as desperate for media attention that you don't care how negative it will be is surely unhealthy) but that still doesn't give other people ownership over her choices.
Mind you, the fact that she is also slated for having breast surgery - and 'boob jobs' are often used as an example of frivolous or immoral use of NHS money - suggests that it's still misogyny at work. Breast reduction or enlargement are often spun as something stupid, vain women undergo for stupid, vain reasons (unless they actually have cancer, in which case they are Brave...) when the reasons for having it are varied and complex.

Applauds Chunderella

differentnameforthis

The woman who said it was sad that women she saw had repeated abortions following failed contraception was
running
the
abortion
referrals
from
an
NHS
hospital.
She took no moral position but felt that abortion was happening too often with some women and that carelessness was hard to understand because they were competent working people, able to keep a job down and function. But she implied were getting pregnant maybe when partying etc. I thought she had an interesting view as she also added that she had met women in the EPAU years later who were having fertility problems following previous abortions. That is kind of tragic don't you think? I am on both sides in this debate but I think the prochoice lobby never paints the negative consequences clearly enough.

Also I would not object to abortions for medical reasons. Although all abortions have to have a genuine medical reason by law don't they?

I have also met women who regret abortions later in life and suffer enormously because of them. Obviously that's not an argument for anything exactly, it's just that having an abortion should be considered more seriously than having a tooth out.

I also would like to know more about foetal suffering, I know it's a massively controversial subject but what do we know about it? Is there any objective science in this area? I kind of doubt it.

it's just that having an abortion should be considered more seriously than having a tooth out

so should having a baby ... which results in serious mental health issues for lots of women

Of course it should.

I am pro choice and pro life.

I think a reasonable position is that abortion should be avoided with serious commitment and the negative consequences of abortion should be made clear to people to help them make the best contraceptive choices.
Also I think if someone gets pregnant because they got pissed at a party than that's life - I wouldn't want a woman to have an unwanted child at all. but I would hope that wouldn't happen twice to the same woman unless she's just extremely fertile and very unlucky. But three times? Is that fine? How many abortions is still fine? I'm not saying every sperm is sacred but how many abortions would a woman have to have before someone said 'Have mercy upon us woman', I'm just curious.

How many abortions is still fine?

As many as a woman needed.

how many abortions would a woman have to have before someone said 'Have mercy upon us woman',

No-one in the position of dealing with a woman choosing abortion should ever say that. If they do- they're in the wrong job. And take mercy? Really? What does that even mean?

She took no moral position

Except all the judgements she made that you posted directly after this comment.

ok, a hypothetical question.

why can't the question even be asked, is there a point where a woman could have too many abortions?

This is a sensible moral question.

If you have a moral position you should be able to answer some robust questioning.

I am prochoice but uncomfortable with treating human life as excessively disposable. A woman should have choice but for her own sake surely there comes a point where a number of abortions could do damage to her? Is that an unreasonable question and if so why? Why can't someone who is prochoice be allowed to ask robust questions? It's so lame to say "don't ask!".
Basic moral argument requires us to justify our positions against robust questioning surely without getting all our handbags up and screaming stop - it's just hysterical.

I am between pro life and pro choice so why not engage with me?

A woman should have choice but for her own sake surely there comes a point where a number of abortions could do damage to her?

could do damage to her. 1 abortion could do damage. 6 might not but the seventh might. It's entirely individual and entirely the woman in question's risk to take. It's not for anyone else to say "i think that's enough now" or "have mercy on us" (please can you explain that one? What on earth does it mean? Mercy on who exactly?)

This is a sensible moral question.

You seem to contradict yourself. You say it is concern for women's health and talk of abortions damaging them but then go on to say it is a moral question. So which is it? Are you asking from a position of concern for the health of a woman or from a moral standpoint?

If you are referring to me when you say 'hysterical' and 'getting our handbags up' (some lovely women silencing language right there) then i think you are completely misinterpreting my post. Perhaps you expect hysteria but it isnt what you are getting from me so dont attribute it to me to suit your agenda.

I am between pro life and pro choice so why not engage with me?

I'm not sure why you think i didnt engage with you when i directly quoted you and asked you a question (which you havent responded to)

As many as she likes. Yes, as many as she likes. The point you are missing is that it is none of your or anyone else's fucking business how many abortions any individual woman has. or how late in her pregnancies she has them. A woman having a termination every couple of months for every year of her fertile life has no effect on anyone else. Women need to have access to as many safe, legal abortions as they want, because when a woman's access to safe, legal abortion becomes someone else's decision to make, women suffer and die.

So that means abortion has no moral dimension at all? None?

I don't believe that. We are not islands, we live in a community of people. My sister for example was a midwife and refused to assist at abortions because that is not what she went into nursing for. Now she is prochoice so she would defend the right of a woman to have an abortion. But she does not want to be involved.
Is that her choice? Or does she have no choice but to assist in abortions? I find your position a bit of a moral dictatorship. I do want legal and safe abortions but I also want women to be as responsible as possible too. Is that an unreasonable position?

because they were competent working people, able to keep a job down and function.

Don't "competent working" people get accidentally pregnant then? Or have to have terminations because of medical issues? It's just the feckless poor, is it?

What a fucking insulting thing to say...whoever said will not be privvy to ALL the reasons of ALL the women she came across.

I thought she had an interesting view as she also added that she had met women in the EPAU years later who were having fertility problems following previous abortions. That is kind of tragic don't you think? Not really that tragic., no. When I had my termination I was made aware of the fact that it might hinder future attempts to get pregnant, as far as I know, it is a risk you take & one that you are informed of & sign a consent form for.

But that is also a risk you take with all pregnancies. My section could have prevented any further pregnancies, as could my friends operation for cancer. There is no guarantee that every single woman will be able to get pregnant. A school friends aborted at 8 weeks, and she went on to lose a baby at 12 weeks. She asked her consultant if it was because of the termination & was told no, that in all likeliness, if she hadn't aborted, she may have lost baby #1 at a similar time, so you cannot say, 100% that all cases of infertility that follow a termination are BECAUSE of that termination.

You know what also gets played down in society?
The results of being an unwanted child on both child & parent.
The results of being forced to continue a pregnancy you don't want.
The results of giving a child up for adoption on both child & parent.

it's just that having an abortion should be considered more seriously than having a tooth out Hmm, do you really think that most women don't think about what they are doing, you seem to think that a termination is some kind of inbuilt default action! I have no regrets, by the way. It was the best thing I did for my family.

I think a reasonable position is that abortion should be avoided with serious commitment and the negative consequences of abortion should be made clear to people to help them make the best contraceptive choices. You do realise that not all terminations are performed because of bad contraception choice/no contraception, don't you?

Mine was because we had a DOUBLE contraception failure.
My friend - because she had to have treatment for cervical cancer
Another friend - she, her dh & her therapist were concerned about her mental health follow very severe PND.

is there a point where a woman could have too many abortions? No. There. I answered for you. 100% availability, 100% of the time. No matter what.

One of my friends listed above had one at 15 & one at 26. One stupid accident, one medical. If she were to get pregnant again & get a re-occurrence of the cervical cancer, are you really saying that she should be made to 'have mercy' and have that baby at a risk to her own health? How about her existing children who might be made motherless if she doesn't have her cancer dealt with? Who will be looking out for them? But will they be OK, because mummy may have died, but she left them a little baby brother/sister to care for .. aww...

Why can't someone who is prochoice be allowed to ask robust questions? It's so lame to say "don't ask!". I haven't seen anyone say you can't ask questions.

My sister for example was a midwife and refused to assist at abortions because that is not what she went into nursing for. Now she is prochoice so she would defend the right of a woman to have an abortion. But she does not want to be involved. Is that her choice? Of course that is her choice, I don't see anyone here insisting or forcing your sister to do anything she doesn't want. You seem like you would object to her having to do it as part of her job...fair enough, I understand.

But do you see how hypocritical YOU are being in saying that women can have a choice to opt out of certain medical practices (that they spent years in training to do), but they can't have a choice as to how many children they bring into this world?

And responsibility? Perhaps I could say that your sister should have been a bit more responsible and chosen a career that didn't involve caring for those who were undergoing a medical procedure that she doesn't 'like' performing...

I do want legal and safe abortions but I also want women to be as responsible as possible too. Is that an unreasonable position? It is if you don't understand that unwanted pregnancies occur from more than just being 'careless' wrt contraception. How can a woman be responsible & safe if she is terminating on medical grounds, or because of rape?

Time & time again we see it here.... the assumption that every unwanted pregnancy is the result of not using contraception.

That & the assumption that every woman will love & cherish her baby (who is the result of an unwanted pregnancy) once born, are 2 of my pet hates here on MN!

Sorry, not read the entire thread, but the reason I am pro-choice is that I believe every child deserves to be wanted.

When you listen to the right-wing talk against abortion, it sounds like they think children should be some kind of punishment for people they consider to be immoral.