to be completely confused - pro/anti choice

[ScarletFever]

I have ALWAYS considered myself pro-choice

and then this - remember that person Josie who is on the daily mail a lot, with her nhs boob job etc who has made a career of annoying people... who said

"i would have aborted my baby if it meant i could go on Big Brother"

Right - so I was like "oh you evil cow" etc......, but then it was pointed out somewhere, if you are pro-choice, then what difference does it mean if her reason is crap?

So, how do i get my head around it being 'ok to abort a disabled child, or if you are not ready for children, or even it is the wrong time (re career) to have a child' but not ok to abort a child for a 'celebrity' reason??

I notice cleft lip and palate has been brought up, you do realise it is not always an easy thing to fix? Thankfully yes in most cases it can be but on some cases it is so severe that the skull is not formed correctly and the brain cannot develop, there can also be other disabilities alongside it.

I don't understand why anyone would want to force a woman to go through birth and deliver a live baby. Even a late stage termination is still different to normal Labour and birth and what exactly do you propose is done with the unwanted child?!

This BPAS report is highly relevant and important reading:

www.bpas.org/js/filemanager/files/bpas_press_briefing_late_abortion.pdf

These figures are real life, not us musing away online.

These are the real reasons why women might be considering a late termination.

Drug user on methadone programme. Her medication means that she has no periods, so she did not realise she was pregnant. Feels that having a baby at this time will “push her over the edge”

and the truly shocking

Woman already has two young children with her husband, and they don’t think they can cope with a new baby. She realised she was pregnant early in the pregnancy and went to see her GP, who said that as she was “fit and healthy, no doctor would give her an abortion”. A family friend gave her details of a local NHS clinic, but she could not get an appointment for 3 weeks. She was then told she was over the (12 week) limit for the local service and so was referred on to BPAS. It took her a further week to make an appointment because she was “terrified of being told off for being so far gone”.

some facts www.bpas.org/js/filemanager/files/bpas_press_briefing_late_abortion.pdf

Suppose a woman knows from tests that the foetus is badly damaged and will only live a short time. She chooses to abort, but the doctor says "because it's past a certain time I've decided to make you give birth to it so we can watch it suffer and die".

She has made the decision and shouldn't have the worry that the assigned doctor might be a pro-lifer.

cross posted !

see also the woman who found out her partner was abusing her existing children

Great minds think alike!

I was on the fence about full-term abortion before I read that. I'm not going to admit I struggle with the practical idea of terminating a 36w pregnancy, for example. But reading the reasons why women had asked for late terminations - that cut off point is so distressingly arbitrary

Honestly, on a personal level, I struggle with lots of aspects of abortion, but I defend every single womans right to have access to it whenever she needs it.

A lot of women can't cope with their children and find themselves in terrible situations. It's horrific but society doesn't say the children can be killed. It says we'll look after those children.

I don't think anyone here is arguing against late term abortions for medical reasons as per the current law. We are arguing against the availability of abortions of healthy viable foetuses up until birth (crowning, cord cutting, onset of labour???) that some posters support.

I am arguing that the current law is sufficient and that after 24 weeks, society should look after the baby as they would after birth.

I am arguing that the current law is sufficient and that after 24 weeks, society should look after the baby as they would after birth

And again. Dodges the question this 24 weeker with brain damage who can't walk or communicate or eat and requires oxygen needs more than society to loon after it. He or she needs a home with a family prepared and qualified to tend to all their needs. Who are healthy because even aged 40/50 they will still require round the clock care.
Who have money became society's support isn't enough to fund everything he or she will need.

Hang on ill just beat my way through the queue in the street

We're ignoring the fucking obvious point that nobody at all wants a baby to be born any earlier than it has to be - a 32-weeker might be dodging a failing placenta, or pre-eclampsia. , - but there is risk involved in keeping a woman pregnant who wishes not to be.

In most situations it's best to keep a fetus in the uterus as long as possible until the due window.

On the other hand, In most situations it's best to relieve a pregnant woman of her unwanted pregnancy as soon as possible once she's decided on a tx. There are physical and psychological reasons.

Those positions are at odds and any discussion of delivering unwanted babies straight into HDU/SCBU has to include that discussion. Should we maximise the baby's chances, or minimise the impact on the woman? Every day counts, in both directions.

I am arguing that the current law is sufficient and that after 24 weeks, society should look after the baby as they would after birth

a. Current law allows termination to birth for medical reasons - not a 24 week cut off

b. Society can't look after the kids it has - especially the ones in care

It's no one else's business, including the medical professionals, why a woman wants an abortion.

It should be completely her choice for a reason she deems fit.

That choice should be as late as she chooses.

Doctors are not paid to judge but to serve their patients.

I laughed out loud at society should look after unwanted babies

Have you seen the stats on outcomes of kids in care?

some Stats:

*It's by no means a given, but children who spend time in the care system are less likely than other children to achieve academic success or benefit from stable relationships.

They are more likely to have problems with crime, drugs and mental health than their peers.

When they leave primary school, 43% of children in care will have reached the national curriculum test level expected for their age - compared with 74% of all children.
Almost one third of children in care leave school with no GCSEs or vocational tests like GNVQs.
Only 13.2% of children in care obtain five good GCSEs - compared with 57.9% of all children.1
Only 6% of care leavers go to university - compared with 38% of all young people.2
One third of care leavers are not in education, employment or training - compared with 13% of all young people.3
More than one in 10 children had three or more placements in 2010. 4
23% of the adult prison population has been in care and almost 40% of prisoners under 21 were in care as children (only 2% of the general population spend time in prison).
A quarter of young women leaving care are pregnant or already mothers, and nearly half become mothers by the age of 24.5*

from www.thewhocarestrust.org.uk/pages/the-statistics.html

Well exactly ghosty

And it's my experience that those who shout and intimidate women outside clinics are the lest likely to give a fucking Toss about the baby once born.

I've always been pro choice and still am, but I still emotionally struggle with some decisions to abort. A woman on another forum I use chose to terminate a nearly viable baby because she hadn't realised she was pregnant until late and hadn't planned children with her OH. It's absolutely the right thing that she could make that choice, but I wept for that baby. I found my strong reactions a real surprise (obviously I said nothing about it to the woman), and it made me realise that being pro choice means accepting decisions I don't agree with.

Yes agree with you Nonie

I agree, thebody. I have the dubious privilege of knowing some of these people socially (although I do my utmost to avoid them) and have debated these issues with them. When I've asked how they support the 'saved' fetuses, they mentioned offering 'care packages' after the birth, ie. a carrier bag full of clothes and nappies.

The anti-choicers I know identify as devout Christians but are devoid of compassion. They believe that requests that they stop shoving placards into the faces of vulnerable women is a denial of their right to free speech. They also claim their actions are 'educational'.

I can rage at a society that doesn't provide adequate care but that doesn't mean giving permission to kill viable foetuses at 39 weeks is the correct solution.

And questioning late term abortion isn't the same as protesting outside an abortion clinic.

Something else to consider: there have been some cases (not many, but some) where a wanted baby was born alive at 22/23 weeks, but medical staff refused to attempt treatment on the grounds that the baby had been born before the legal abortion cut off point. It is, of course, quite likely that such a baby would have died anyway - very prem babies who live and thrive are in the minority - but in these situations, the choice was again removed from the woman. I read a story in one of the proleporn mags (while I was pregnant with DS, ouch) about a woman whose 20 week scan revealed problems incompatible with survival, and who chose not to terminate because she wanted her baby to be born and registered as a birth rather than as a miscarriage. (in this specific story, there was something wrong with the lungs so that the baby was born alive but didn't live for more than about 10 minutes).
If we regard the decision to continue or terminate a pregancy as being ENTIRELY the business of the pregnant woman then it all becomes perfectly clear in moral terms. Fast, easy terminations for women who want to terminate, support for women who don't want to terminate even if the pregnancy is not going to end in a baby which will live and thrive.
And no more women like Angela Carder and Savita Halappanavar dying because other people's superstitious mysogyny was prioritized over their lives.

Always pro choice because then you can think about and have a choice to make that is safe and considered