To take DS (3) out of pre-school?

[Jefferson]

DS just turned 3 2 weeks ago. He immediately began pre-school. He is going because the nursery has a speech and language facility and he was referred due to a speech delay. He has to do 5 days a week,the afternoon session.
It's not going well.
He loved his naps and slept 2 hrs every day (!) which have had to be dropped. He's now ratty and miserable most days/evenings. The most he can do is conk out in front of the tv for ages after preschool which I hate.

He is just a baby to me and the youngest there. He's not great at going to the toilet by himself but he's sort of just left to it. He can't wipe himself properly or even tear off the toilet roll without getting it everywhere. And I've noticed his underwear is a little damp which makes me think he's goingby himself and not wiping.
They treat them quite grown up like children and he's just not like that. His speech is that of a small toddler really and I'm really worried about him.

He is also going to be there for 2 while yrs before he starts school due to his age. It seems like forever and like we have entered the school years already well before his time. He has a uniform and everything!

We can now never do anything or go anywhere or meet up for lunch before or after school as there's no time. It'll be dark by 4 soon!

Should I take him out?
My main issue is the speech and language therapy. He was given a place especially and I don't want them to be angry. I was hoping to 'defer' it until next yr but not sure if they will let me.

What do other people think?

Nothing strange in a uniform for nursery. I would be very surprised if they allowed you to mix morning and afternoon sessions. I would also imagine that the morning sessions would have a long waiting list and that no one can just jump to the top. Children generally attend a morning or afternoon sessions full time in nurseries attached to schools. If they are full in the morning (as I imagine they will be) then they would be over numbers if they allowed to you mix and match sessions. Generally the more frequently they go the easier it will be. Keeping them off for a day or 2 a week will just make things worse. Reduced session times would generally only be considered if they were really struggling to manage in the classroom on a daily basis.

TBH I would take him out, but that's because I live in a country where they aren't in anywhere near such a hurry to get kids into school/uniforms/etc, and where you do get to extend their childhood freedom for that extra year.

I agree about giving him some extra time there and then making a decision.

Ds was at a sn preschool for a while, with salt, physio, ot etc. On paper it seemed brilliant and I know lots of children who have thrived there, but ds hated it. We gave it a few months, but it didn't work out and we ended up with an arrangement in a ms preschool with lots of support. But he never did more than 4 mornings because he didn't have the stamina.

The progress he has made is huge, and now he is in reception in a special needs unit within ms and loving it.

What sort of speech issues? How badly does he need professional SALT input? SALT is being cut left right & centre so this may be his only way of accessing it (short of you have 50-75 quid anhour spare to pay for it privately).

However that doesn't mean nursery is the best place for him. If they're doing things like getting him going on PECS I would try to make it work, if it's more nursery rhymes & playing I'd take him out & re-think. Depends how easy it is for your to replicate ( it's perfectly possible to teach PECS at home of course - we did - but you would need the training course really to do it properly)

Morning all. Thanks for your input.
I agree they won't let me do mornings or even mix it up. It was just a thought I had.
The meeting is in November so I will discuss with them then and see what they say.
Best option might be to defer. So he has more time before the rigours of school.
He is 12-18 months delayed apparently. So he can say single words and 2 (sometimes 3) words together but not much more than that. He also doesn't speak much at all at day nursery. Single words only rarely. He doesn't say when he needs to go the toilet either always.
He is improving. When he was 2 he said nothing at all. But when I compare him to the fluent sentences of other 3 yr olds I really feel the difference

On the days when you are at home, start trying to get him to take a morning nap just before dropping him off to preschool.

It will take a bit of effort to establish, always does with a change of routine, but stick with it.

Once it is established, you might be able to ask the nursery he goes to in the other 2 mornings to arrange for him to have a morning nap there, but that may not work - still, it will only be 2 days of rattiness out of 7 so much better.

Are they using makaton or pecs with him? That's the sort of thing I'd be expecting really.

If you're unhappy I'd ask to talk to them earlier than November though.

Why don't you make an appointment and go in and talk frankly with them? I expect they have noticed he's exhausted and perhaps finding things difficult. I wouldn't wait til Nov- make them part of finding the solution. Tell them what you have said here, that he's very over-tired, you are worried he's very young and it's quite a formal school environment, that he's doing mornings elsewhere so has two lots of carers a day. Even if you cry (I have cried in front of a teacher only once ever, but it was in a meeting about how one of my children was having difficulty coping)- they will try to help.

I don't think you should think up solutions without talking with them.

Lots of preschools are pretty formal, my dd went to one where most of the children went in uniform (we didn't) and they did letters/writing names first thing every morning, not very play led, more of a preparation for school. She loved it, but she had stayed home for three years and we were worried it would be too much.

Do make an appointment though, don't just soldier on and worry- if you have talked to them at least you know the options.

saintly I'm not sure about Makaton/Pecs.

The reason I felt I should wait until November is because it's half term next week and then only a week after that to the meeting.

I would still speak to them this week if only about the toiletting. He has over a week still to go if you count after half term and he can't be getting about damp...it's not on for them to neglect him like that. They need to step up and keep checking or taking him on the hour. That's what they did for my friend's son at 3.

Yes that's true Clap.
Should I do it through the home/ school book?
They don't seem very keen to chat at the end of the day. They don't actually say anything. Not even goodbye to the kids. I suppose if every parent wanted to talk to them they'd be there all afternoon

No...speak to them in person. You'll need to make them aware of something needing to change today...right now...let them know it's not good enough....politely obviously but firmly. Ask what the toilet routine is first...and then explain he's damp and not clean.

They may say they can't wipe bottoms but they can certainly ensure HE does with help and that he's given more opportunity to visit the loo.

They won't be keen to chat at the end of the day but tough luck on them. This is your child and their need to tidy up can wait ten minutes.

Just be firm and say "I need a private word please...about DS's toileting." and wait. If they say "Oh you should make an appointment" say "It's urgent but will only take a few minutes."

And it IS urgent .

Totally agree with ClapHands. This is urgent and your child's welfare is important enough for them to meet with you to discuss it. Please don't wait. Don't worry about being a trouble - I honestly doubt whether every parent has issues and wants to talk to them.

Can you get salt provision out of the school environment? It's one of the rubbishiest service though so dubious

If there was no speech issue I would say 100 % delay nursery for a year. I think shoehorning children into school this early suits some but not all.

Not sure how the SALT unit works within the school. Would they allow him to attend that alone for an hour a day? Could SALT give you a program you could follow at home. Can you afford private SALT who can give you a program?

He's clearly not ready yet for reception and yes, not unusual at all for kids to wake at 6 am! 6.30 is a luxury

NoMary

My dd had SaLT appointments weekly from age 2 until she started school, she never attended a nursery or pre school.
It was free and done through our gp.
Sometimes it is better for them if they don't go to pre school as the work you do with them isn't undone by children with similar problems.
My dd is a 10 now, and a confident public speaker, with no formal teaching in this direction at all.
She can talk for England, and if you didn't know she'd had problems in her infancy, you would never guess.

I agree the SLT provision is rare and is specially funded and targeted for preschool children with significant speech needs who would most benefit - there are often multiple children competing for the places and nothing like that level of support available otherwise through NHS SLT. (It's six monthly appointments in this county!) So definitely its worth not giving up on too easily.

However. You need them to work with you to meet your son's needs and listen and respond to your concerns. I'd suggest asking to meet with the nursery teacher and the school SENCo who will probably have the overview of your child's provision and the speech therapist, and say here are your concerns, you don't want to have to lose the speech therapy but you're having to consider it against his other needs, what can they do. Give them the chance to be more adaptable. Can he do shorter sessions for a while and build up to longer ones over time? And I get you really miss your time to do your own thing with him, and are looking at the balance between the speech benefit for him and that time - can you take a 'sick' day for him once in a while to go and do those things? Are there compromises that would help you feel happier with this?

I know many people say that children with speech needs catch up just fine and you'd never know later but my experience after years in schools and early years is that actually those children are affected because they had several years where they couldn't understand language and participate to the level their peers did, and so are still a little behind their peers because of that disadvantage, and that can follow for years. So if you can find a way to get the therapy while still feeling your son's and your needs are being met that would be a good way forward - and you still have the option of taking him out if that becomes the last, best choice.

Wow morethan weekly? Where are you based. Here it's more like rumble says, every few months. So I know how lucky we are with this provision.
Thanks for advice all. Am on my way to pick him up now so will try to speak to his TA who is assigned to him and who I think is supporting with toileting. (That's what she told me when I asked about helping him at the beginning)

Well I spoke to the TA. They don't go with him at all. He just takes himself apparently (never ever happened at home!). He gets asked once during group session otherwise left to own devices. I was a bit
I explained that I really didn't think he could manage the wiping (or hand washing really) by himself and she said she would stand outside the toilet and remind him. So they can't physically touch him??

She said for extra help they would need to put a toileting plan in place whatever that is. She was very lovely but made it sound as though it was a real extra thing to help kids in the toilet. Toileting plan sounds very formal. But he's just 3. Been trained for about 7 weeks. He just needs help

Jefferson

I thought anybody would be able to access this
We live in a rather deprived town in N. west, maybe its because so many parents needed help at the time.
My dd is 10 now as well, so it may have been more widespread at this time.
I suppose you use these services and expect it to be the same everywhere.
Saying that, I suppose you have asked your g.p.

If not and you do decide to go down the no nursery route, it is well worth a visit and tbh I didn't know what services existed until I went.

I think as well that it depends on the nature of the speech issue. Dd2 saw SALT weekly for over a year due to a stammer. But in the same area, ds has a very different input.

she sounds bloody annoying! So are they putting in a toiletting plan? It is not unusual at all for children of THREE to require support with toilet use!

If they have not told you they are going to make a toiletting plan then after half term or even tomorrow, ask when this will be done and if it can be in place for your return...and ask for a copy of it too!

The mind boggles! They expect a speech delayed child of just three to sort themselves out re the loo with NO prompting at all!

You lucky with your speech and language provision even if it's making everything else hard. Our NHS provision is one half hour session for 6 weeks on a rolling basis - in the afternoon too.

I would stick with it. Yes he's only small once but carrying such a significant delay into school will be crippling, there's a massive correlation between s&l delay and problems with reading and writing - generally struggling at school. I'm guessing by this intervention they hope to have him caught up before he reaches school and that may take 2 years.

All preschoolers find afternoon sessions really tough, if you can squeeze a nap in before that could help. My own ds who 3 yrs 3 months has started going to bed at 6.30/7pm and now he wakes a bit earlier too but means I can squeeze a nap in around 11am.

I too don't understand the toilet thing. I help in a preschool and children there are helped in the toilet and have their nappies changed as necessary, all according to safeguarding rules and without extra plans in place. Now ds is at school he has a care plan in place in order to accommodate nappy changes, but it wasn't necessary at preschool.