to think that the sad facts of Ivan Cameron's life and death do not exempt Cameron from criticism for his government's policies. [Titled edited by MNHQ to correct spelling of Ivan Cameron's name]

[nippiesweetie]

Again, today during Question Time he uses his son's disability and untimely death to close down discussion on a matter of disability.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/15/welfare-reform-minister-disabled-not-worth-minimum-wage

I don't think mumsnet are saying the matter can't be discussed but I think you're being little unfair to Cameron.

Of course as a rich man with a disabled child his experience is different from that of someone without that money. Of course.

But he WILL have many, many shared experiences with other parents of disabled children beyond questions of money and funding.

I had a very difficult childhood with a violent alcoholic for a father and a violent, narcissist bully for a sister. But I'm also very middle class and relatively well educated so some of my experiences will be much easier than those who came from a more deprived background, but some will be just as hard, irrespective of background.

So, firstly, any experience of disability will have utterly transformed his knowledge of understanding of these issues and is much, much more that if he had not had that experience.

Secondly, it's entirely possible that as a Human being, who will be grieving for his son, that he's more than a little sensitive about this. To not allow this is to dehumanise him; is to suggest that his experiences can be wholly dismissed because they are not 'equal' to other people's (as he is very rich).

I'm not an apologist for David Cameron the politician, I have and never will vote Tory but the tone of some people is very unpleasant and smacks of the very cynicism that he is accused of.

Um when's he going to tone down ESA assessments then? This Government will improve things for the disabled at about the same time as Phoney Tony actually achieves peace in the Middle East!!!

I think people are deliberately misunderstanding the posts on this thread! DC repeatedly mentions Ivan has a response to how govt cuts are disproportionately affecting disabled people.

But he does use his personal circumstances in a manipulative way to shore up votes...all politicians do when they're mentioning their experiences and using them in a political speech.

That doesn't make those experiences any less life affecting - but it's not a casual conversation that's been overheard, it's a political arena and if they're brought up it is to use them in making a specific point.

@Hakluyt

Rowan- why do you think he mentions Ivan at all in a political context?

Politicians mention their kids all the time - don't most parents?

But when a politician who's lost a child talks about their grief, and how their child's death has affected them, we think it should be taken at face value. We understand that not all of you do, but it's the line we've chosen to draw on MN.

@tabulahrasa

But he does use his personal circumstances in a manipulative way to shore up votes...all politicians do when they're mentioning their experiences and using them in a political speech.

That doesn't make those experiences any less life affecting - but it's not a casual conversation that's been overheard, it's a political arena and if they're brought up it is to use them in making a specific point.

This is a fair point and yes, all politicians use personal circumstances in the hope that it will humanise them with the electorate or strike a chord or whatever.

But the particular circumstances here - that a child actually died - mean that we think it becomes a different sort of issue.

As we said below, we don't have a problem with posts that analyse possible connections between Ivan Cameron's death and his father's policies.

But we just think that bald statements that a father is lying about the extent of his own grief (which is basically the charge) is a step too far.

I've often wondered if Ivan's death contributed subconsciously to his bitterness and hatred towards people with disabilities. It's as though he thinks anyone who isn't so disabled/ill that they die must therefore be putting it on or summat.

That's quite a ridiculous leap.

It is a devastating thing to happen, and my heart goes out to all the Camerons.

I agree, though, that appealing to personal circumstance is a dodgy business for politicians. If his political treatment of disability is to be taken more seriously because of his son, then does his massive, massive wealth detract from his ability to reason about the financial circumstances of 99% of the rest of the UK?

i am so glad I missed this. there is something very not nice about what he is doing.
he is not just some man off the street, he is the PM, yet it seems he uses this to shut down discussion.
I am not going to say what I really think of him, it would be deleted. but I will say he has no idea what it is really like. if he did he would be helping other parents in that situation, not making their lives harder.
no doubt this thread will end up being deleted.

But we just think that bald statements that a father is lying about the extent of his own grief (which is basically the charge) is a step too far.

That's quite a leap. Are you sure this is what all the deleted posts were saying?

Politicians talk about there own life experiences all the time, not as politically motivated manipulation, but because we all do - we all use our own life experiences all the time to inform and explain what we think and do - it's normal behavior!

I realise my view I this is warped by actually knowing some politicians, but there are just people in the end and while far from representative in terms of gender, race and disability - they are good and bad, smart and stupid, and as full of or lacking in integrity as the rest of us.

What are they supposed to do - not mention their personal experience of something - what would be the point of that?

YANBU

oh and I do wonder how he can look the parents from his sons school in the eye now.

^^
Yes who said that?
There's a difference between saying that DC is cynically using the death of a child to shore up votes, and POs making the point that the PM's personal tragedy should not used as evidence that his governments policies towards disabled people are anything other than vile.

@nauticant

But we just think that bald statements that a father is lying about the extent of his own grief (which is basically the charge) is a step too far.

That's quite a leap. Are you sure this is what all the deleted posts were saying?

It may not be what all the posters concerned intended to imply, but yes - we do think that's the takeaway message - either that or that he is prepared to use the fact of his own son's death in a callous and manipulative way.

Sorry. The ^^ was in agreement with nauticants post

You are certainly making your own inferences there Rowan.
So you mean to say that no one has actually said that?

@NotTheKitchenAgainPlease

^^ Yes who said that? There's a difference between saying that DC is cynically using the death of a child to shore up votes, and POs making the point that the PM's personal tragedy should not used as evidence that his governments policies towards disabled people are anything other than vile.

We think it's fine to say 'I don't accept his argument that the fact of his son's death means he cannot be guilty of making policy that has a terrible impact on disabled people'.

We don't think it's fine to say 'he is using his son's death'.

It may be a fine distinction but we think it's a really important one.

I find this thread pretty distasteful to be honest maybe he just finds it pretty upsetting because his son died but of course because he's rich it would simply have been a minor inconvenience to his family

This. It's a horrible, snipey thread.

So no one said it, but you have interpreted a supposed implication?

Ok Rowan. I get ya

Of course his grief & love for his son are real,but his experience of life with a profoundly disabled child is far removed from the reality of what many families go through.

Being unable to work due to caring for your child, losing your home perhaps as unable to keep up mortgage payments, living in an inappropriate council house then having to pay bedroom tax as your disabled child needs a room to themselves.

Unable to afford the equipment needed to make life easier & more comfortable as the NHS waiting list is so long, not enough therapists but can't afford private treatment.

A high percentage of people who have a disabled family member live in poverty,not something that Dave ever had to worry about.

I've worked with families with disabled children & adults & David Cameron's experience is nowhere close to it.

"What are they supposed to do - not mention their personal experience of something - what would be the point of that?"

No, I was going to make a point, but I wasn't sure what we were being allowed to say.

I don't have an issue with him using his personal experiences where they're relevant.

I'm not very happy about him using his experience as a parent of a child to stifle questions about comments made by his welfare minister about adults with disabilities and minimum wage...because actually no, I don't think he does know about being an adult with a disability looking for work.

ffs I have been deleted AGAIN
wtf. it seems you cannot post anything on here unless it is saying good stuff about this man.
why leave the thread and then delete people for saying he does not know what it is like.
he must love mn hq

Rowan, again, I do not read in any of the posts here that people think Cameron's 'own child's death means [so] little to him'.

Neither can I see in any of them evidence that he is 'lying about the extent of his own grief'. In fact I'd call that a wild and possibly willful misreading.

I think Kitchen nails it with the statement 'the PM's personal tragedy should not be used as evidence that his governments policies towards disabled people are anything other than vile.'

That is really all that most people on here are trying to say. I get that MN have drawn a line, or come up with a policy, or whatever, on this subject, and I'm fully prepared for you to reiterate it on this thread; but I want to say, for the record, that IMO you are misreading and misunderstanding people's posts.