to think that the sad facts of Ivan Cameron's life and death do not exempt Cameron from criticism for his government's policies. [Titled edited by MNHQ to correct spelling of Ivan Cameron's name]

[nippiesweetie]

Again, today during Question Time he uses his son's disability and untimely death to close down discussion on a matter of disability.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/15/welfare-reform-minister-disabled-not-worth-minimum-wage

I didn't see the Salmond/Hitler comments. How interesting that HQ didn't seem to find those despicable enough to delete and yet they have such a problem with this thread.

HQ, I (and I think others on here) would like to hear what if anything you've decided to do about this. Are you reviewing your policy? Coming up with a comprehensive statement on it/this thread?

Perhaps this is a good reminder that MN does actually belong to someone (or more than one), and that they presumably have the right to set the rules and run it how they like.
The main option for "consumers" is to vote with their feet, isn't it?

OddFodd wrote "Oh do fuck off CarolDecker.

There, I've redressed the balance from this being a very sensible and reasoned discussion into a shouty outside the pub one.

grin"

OddFodd - That gave me a real grin ;-)

Mindreader wrote "Yy to the important point alice makes above.

We will end up with a group of people who are not 'PIP' worthy, yet not worth minimum wage either???? This is nonsensical!

It's completely disgusting too.

But, where the Tories lead, Labour / others will follow sad

The EVIL thing is - it is NOT all about money / productivity -

re BCBG's friend's dd:

"She points out that if the employer were Govt assisted to fund her daughters place at work this would still be cheaper than daycare."

However her dd's workplace assistants wage is funded, it is still cheaper - as well as in this case clearly 'better' for the dd - to work in this job - than be stuck in daycare.

It is cheaper to pay DLA to those who claim it as the % of fraud is miniscule than to pay ATOS to humiliate a whole group of people - whilst ignoring their Consultants medical Reports -

This ISNT about money / productivity - it is ideological.
It's divide and rule and it's frighteningly effective."

Mindreader, you are completely, absolutely spot on the money with this post.

Never have disabled people been made to feel so completely and utterly worthless as they have in the past 3 years.

I agree entirely it's ideological, but although I wrote about the productivity, and in my post linked it to companies getting "value for money", there is more to it than that. The ideology I see is that people should be productive to be worth feeding, to allow them to live and breathe - and if they're not productive then they're not worth keeping alive.
Productivity is linked to value for money in company terms - but the basics of it are "value to society" and "worth keeping alive".

I don't think I'm disagreeing with Mindreader, I certainly don't feel like I am, just might be coming at it from a very slightly different angle.

I'm pretty sure we've already invoked Godwin's Law on here, but if not here we go - it really is the old "Arbeit mach frei" thing.

Thing is - and this isn't totally relevant to this thread but to the Freud comments generally (and apologies if the point's been made already - I HAVE read the thread, you know, and heard/read copious amounts in the media, but it is possible to miss something!!), there already is a system whereby people with certain difficulties do work for less than the MW. It's called work experience.

It's a very common mechanism for adults with LDs to do this on a regular basis. My 21 year old is away doing his today. He does useful but menial tasks like sweeping up leaves, feeding the guinea pigs, lots of social contact, etc. at a supported garden centre place. It keeps him busy but there is little prospect of him getting paid work. He likes it and it gives his week some routine in amongst a couple of college sessions and youf clubs. But no way is it 'proper' work.

It's not clear to me in all the Freud fall-out whether he was talking about people with LDs or those with MH problems or people with physical disabilities. It's possible he just wasn't thinking at all. And has as a result caused great deal of upset to vulnerable people. And Cameron? Well, I don't think much of him either. I sometimes wonder if, in the modern age of politics, that they are all so used to being 'spun' that they can find it hard to think issues through on the spur of the moment. And that's politicians on all 'sides'.