to think that the sad facts of Ivan Cameron's life and death do not exempt Cameron from criticism for his government's policies. [Titled edited by MNHQ to correct spelling of Ivan Cameron's name]

[nippiesweetie]

Again, today during Question Time he uses his son's disability and untimely death to close down discussion on a matter of disability.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/15/welfare-reform-minister-disabled-not-worth-minimum-wage

First page. Several posters said it. And if that's not what they meant then they need to re read their posts and get them pulled, immediately.

but it's not really on to imply that someone's distress at their child's illness or grief over their death is made '100 times easier' by money, is it?

I would never say that.

What I would say, is that the distress is 100 times worse when you throw financial worries, threat of homelessness, benefit sanctions into the mix. DC has no experience of those things.

I think that is what most people were saying too.

Hak... So therefore life isn't as hard and stop whinging, rich twat?

Yeah. OK.

"Hak... So therefore life isn't as hard and stop whinging, rich twat?

Yeah. OK."

No. That's not what I said. But you carry on deliberately misunderstanding. Who cares?

How is that not as disgusting as someone saying "yeah, he raped you, but at least he didn't hit you too! How much would that suck?!" As certain media types have said recently.

sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/we-need-to-talk-about-ivan/

This is a link to a very well written piece from 2012 from which I have copied this excellent quote:

"Each time, the spectre of that poor child is raised like an invincible shield by his own father, each time his memory is drop-kicked into a political minefield – knowing that nobody will dare touch it – debate is silenced and legitimate questions about these reforms go unanswered.
It is not only inappropriate. It is distasteful and immoral."

Nobody doubts the sincere awful pain he suffered at his son's death but Cameron was the one who opted to play politics with his son and now his son's memory.

I assure you I am not deliberately misunderstanding. I would love to think that you are not meaning that, because people who have expressed that are appalling to me. I hope you are not meaning to suggest it. I hope no one was.

the loss of a child is never easier because you are rich or poor.
what is harder is the things that happen surrounding it.
if you are rich you will not have to also worry about how you will manage now the mobility WAV/car has gone back.
where you will live as the HA house is for a disabled person.
these are things that add to a burden of greif.

I have a disabled child.

I also have (a fair amount of) money, and live a comfortable, even luxurious life. I have not always been well off, and certainly know what it is to be poor.

The pain and fear my daughter faces daily are no easier, believe me. The struggles we face as a family are no easier.

I face the same struggles with the nhs as everyone else. We have private health insurance, but most of what my dd needs is not covered under the policy. Money makes no difference (and we also pay a far higher premium because of her disabilities - nice and fair). The same shitty education system. I can afford to pay for my child to attend an independent SN school, but actually finding one which will take her is a different kettle of fish altogether - self funding is simply not allowed at many (I would say most) which are suitable for my dd. So having enough money makes no difference to that particular battle either.

I hate it when these threads come up. I battle against a decaying system daily, and yet, with increasing regularity, the threads pop up which belittle my experience.

Thanks a lot.

The Brown's, Gordon and Sarah, also have a child with a life limiting and ultimately fatal condition. They also lost an 11 day old child. I can't remember them ever working either of those into a speech.

NewInformation that is an interesting post. especially the bit about education.

NewInformation.

I wish, as someone said upthread, than DC would use his experiences "to spur him on to make sure support is there for others".

It's not belittling your experience NewInformation

I know you struggle with those things like everyone else, no one is saying you don't.

But if you think it is the same experience as someone on low income/benefits, then you are way off.

It is not a competition on who has it worse/better, but there are aspects to the experience that are without doubt harder to cope with when you have serious money worries.

See? It's happening here. We can't challenge the Tories on their despicable record on policies concerning people with disabilities and their families because he has brought his own child into the debate, so any challenge immediately becomes n poor taste. Other mumsnetters get upset because they feel that their experience is being belittled when there was no intention to do that at all and all the while the NHS is being demolished in front of our eyes, it's becoming impossible to get statements for children with SEN, benefits are being cut..........

So therefore life isn't as hard and stop whinging, rich twat?

Nobody is saying that. What some people are saying (rightly) is that if you have experienced looking after a disabled child as a rich (young middle aged) person, don't hold yourself out as an expert beyond question on what looking after a disabled person of any age would be like to experience as a poor or even averagely funded person of any age. And don't use your experience to close down legitimate debate, because that - more than anything that has been said in this thread - is unseemly.

Cameron does not have the experience of looking after a disabled adult as a young carer, or as an elderly person. He doesn't have the experience of looking after anyone, disabled or not, as a poor or average income person. His experience is relevant to the debate and probably gives him some useful insights but it isn't the totality of all experiences that exist, and he lacks certain dimensions by virtue of his age at the time, the age of his child, his own domestic set up (two parent family) and his financial circumstances. Even if you ignore the additional privileges he enjoyed as an MP. If he wasn't trying to close down debate I doubt anyone would have a problem with him using his own experiences to inform the discourse. He clearly has valuable insights most especially about the particular situation his family was in (I know someone with a child with the same condition as Cameron's son had and it is incredibly difficult for the family to cope with on a day to day basis. Just the pure amount of medication this child has to take would defeat most of us). But he is trying to close down debate, so we do have a problem with that.

Rabbit, I wish there was a upvote function. Thank you for your explanation.

Knee, no two peoples experiences are ever the same.

I could recount at length my experience of caring for my terminally ill parent while on benefits and living in a council house. Which, I have to say, was infinitely easier than most of the battles I have faced with my child, because I had a simply marvellous case worker who pointed me in the right direction, helped me with forms, and was all-round super supportive and helpful. I do know what it is like, believe me.

But again, the experiences are not the same (I haven't ever said they are). But ime I had the easier experience when I was poor.

And read the posts on the first couple of pages - plenty of people hinting that you don't face the same struggles in the nhs, or with any professionals, if you have money. That there will be shorter wait times, or no disagreements over treatments paths or diagnoses. Utter horseshit.

DrSuess Gordon Brown has mentioned the death of Jennifer a few times, in context and not in an attempt to close down debate. He is clearly deeply uncomfortable doing so (ending up in tears on each of the few occasions I am aware he has done it). He has not, to my knowledge, made any political points about CF. CF is an horrendous condition and there are currently huge funding battles over treatments which appear to be revolutionary and continuing research which looks like it might, possibly, maybe, be a breakthrough. Parents struggling to lead normal lives with children and young adults with CF face a herculean task, as do the young people themselves when they get to the age where most kids are thinking about uni and independent living. I actually think that it would be good (from a campaigning POV) if Gordon Brown said more about this, but I guess because his sons are still young he prefers not to - I imagine it wouldn't be pleasant for either of them seeing their family's issues all over the press.

Not one person has said that the death of David Cameron's son was not tragic and devastating.
The family must also have gone through great anxiety and distress at times during his life.

However what people ARE saying is that he is not showing much understanding for people who also have to give up their jobs, possibly lose their homes etc etc in direct relation to their child's disability.
Also there is not much support for adults with a disability who wish to work-its all a bit "survival of the fittest"

"And read the posts on the first couple of pages - plenty of people hinting that you don't face the same struggles in the nhs, or with any professionals, if you have money. That there will be shorter wait times, or no disagreements over treatments paths or diagnoses. Utter horseshit"

But if you have Cameron's income you can buy stuff, you can employ people, you can go private if that will speed things up, you can buy the right car, you can pay for your house to be adapted. You don't lie awake at night worrying about money. And people looking after children with disabilities often do.

Hakluyt - it has been almost impossible to get statements for many many years.

It took me over 4 years to get a statement for my daughter (should take 6 months), and this was long before the Tories were in power.

My stepbrother never got a statement, despite being in the bottom 5% in attainment terms, and being failed badly by the system. Again, this was not while the Tories were in power.

The education system has been rotten for a lot longer than Cameron's time, although I can't say that I see it improving under his leadership at all.

Something that is particularly relevant to the specific issue that sparked off the exchange and thus this thread is that the original comment was about the right of workers with a disability 'not being worth minimum wage' - an atrocious comment to make, IMO. Cameron clearly has no relevant experience related to the situation with his son, about this issue. I know his father also became disabled in later life and he may therefore have relevant experience relating to disabled people and the world of employment as a result - but he didn't mention that in this exchange. His reference to his son was actually completely irrelevant to the comment from his party colleague. Thus it's difficult to see it as anything other than a move to close down debate.

"Hakluyt - it has been almost impossible to get statements for many many years."

But it is worse now. And children with disabilities are being "vanished" from school rolls- our school has mysteriously got 10% fewer this year than last.............

"Language is important but it's also about the specific charge of using/manipulating his child's death - which your post didn't make."

But he is using it, he used it in a speech, he's using it to make a point...

I know there are connotations in the word using that are negative - but it's not the only way it's ever used.

And a speech at a party conference is pretty much supposed to manipulate, otherwise it's a bit pointless really. In response to the questions about lord Freud's comments he was trying to stop discussing it and that experience is what he chose to draw on to do that. If he'd chosen a different experience, if he'd said, look I've spoken to out of work adults with disabilities, I don't need a lecture...that's still manipulating the discussion to try and shut it down.

Yes, obviously it's different if there's a post saying he is uncaring or didn't suffer or grieve when he lost a child that's different, that's not ok on any level.

But when he puts it out there as a piece of information relevant to an issue... I think it then should be a piece of information relevant to the issue that you should be able to say is being used or manipulated, in the same way that any other experience put out there in public as relevant to the issue would be.

Hakluyt, with respect, but do you actually know that from personal experience?

I have 2 children with additional needs, one severe. I have a wide circle of friends with children with a wide range of additional needs. I have yet to come across anyone who has had even near the experience I had trying to get a statement.

I am not saying it is any easier to get a statement (or ECHP) now than it has been before, far from it. But my daily experiences are not telling me it is significantly harder, tbh.