To think £100k pa is NOT 'the squeezed middle'?

[ArsenicFaceCream]

Link

The article is very confidently attributing the definition to Danny Dorling, but did he really name this figure?!

These women are fools.

I complained to our MP about child benefit and she deliberately ignored my point, just banged on about there had to be a cut off. In my letter I explicitly said that I agreed in principle about the child benefit being cut from the highest earners, and appreciated that there would be a cut off somewhere, but that the household income should be taken into account as whilst I'd understand losing it if everyone at our income level did, I could not see the fairness of couples earning close to 100k keeping it. When I went back to her after she had ignored my question, she said there was no mechanism for examining joint income. Err, I thought that's exactly what children's tax credit was, as everyone I knew who was eligible used to tell me that the forms came out to both them and other half. I gave up the correspondence as obviously nothing would change and she had the matter of her own expenses to sort out

If we all wanted to maximise our earnings, are there enough of these 50k + jobs to go round when we have all trained as neurosurgeons/barristers/etc?

I had a similar experience with my MP Housemum re CB. It was quite fun to watch him squirm though and he really couldn't justify the income anomaly either. I didn't let him off the hook though, I kept on at him and in the end he did agree that it wasn't fair. Didn't change anything though. I expect he'll be knocking on my door in May trying to get my vote. I'm rather looking forward to it!

I left school with no idea what I wanted to do.
I left University determined never to work in an office.
I then drifted into accountancy and found I was good at it.
I then got qualified as it seemed mad not to.
And have never regretted dropping back to part time to fit around my kids 16 years ago.

Chunderella - I was merely using your example to emphasise the point made by Greengrow. There is absolutely nothing wrong with earning 20-30k doing something you enjoy and have the skills and experience to do (or even doing such a role because it fits with your life/is in the right location, etc.). I was just suggesting that this should be an informed choice.

Not everyone would want to deal with the level of responsibility I have in my job. I don't want to work the hours I'd need to work to make partner in a private practice firm. It is just sad to meet people who regret their choice because they didn't realise what the reality of that choice would be.

It is a terrible shame that decent career advice isn't available to everyone. I certainly didn't get any useful careers advice from my school - nor did my parents have any useful insights (my dad got into engineering via an apprenticeship, and my mother left school at 15 with no qualifications, and worked as a typist before being a SAHM for 20 years).

I was always interested in and good at science. I did science subjects at A level and knew I wanted to do a science degree. I graduated with a science degree in quite a specialised field and I moved up to London for my first job. Most of the jobs in my field were London / South East. I worked in this discipline for a couple of years and really enjoyed it, but I had to move back to the South West as my mum died and dad couldn't cope on his own. Try as I might, it was difficult to get a job in my area in my field. I had a few short term contracts, but nothing long term. In the end I went into IT training and consultancy (my science background helped with certain organisations), and as I'm good with people I enjoyed it and stayed in that field until I had dc. A lot of the work was travelling and staying away for weeks on end, so it hasn't worked with the dc and our family situation. I've been a SAHM for a few years now, but my dc are getting to an age where I can start thinking about a new life for me!

By the way I have never said anything is wrong with low pay or no pay as long as people are making informed choices. My school said not to do what I wanted to do and I ignored them. I think only having 35p a week pocket money helped me - if you don't have much money that can make you realise a good career started as a teenager is a good way to ensure you will have a bit of spare money later. I moved hundreds of miles from the North East for work.

It is good to see the stories of so many women on this thread who have moulded their own lives and chosen a career change to get more pay. It shows women as much as men can make choices and make things happen rather than life being something that is thrown at them and they blow arond in the wind suffering it and not making choices.

I don't think my school or home had particularly good career advice. I just literally got on my bike in Newcastle and cycled to the library to get books on various careers. I was quite bright (are women allowed to say that or only men?) so that probably helped.

Any teenager with access to a computer can research careers. If they don't and they then do less well than those who do then that's their own look out and they will be on mumsnet in `10 years' time complaining about low pay and how life is not fair.

The argument that most women should tolerate minimum wage jobs because we need cleaners and call centre workers cuts no ice with me. Of course we do but if you want to earn more go for it and leave those choices to others.

greengrow indeed.

If people make informed choices about work/ money then that is all to the good.

Some people actively want to do work that doesn't attract high wages. It makes them happy. That's cool.

But far too many people, especially women seem to sleep walk into it. That will be a lot less likely for our DC if we lose the squeamishness about talking of money.

The trouble is though Green and Word, you can start out in life full of hope and ambition and know that you are more than capable, but sometimes, just sometimes, life gets in the way and things happen that are beyond our control and sometimes we are faced with having to make different choices to the ones we'd hoped and dreamed for. Life doesn't always go according to plan unfortunately.

informed choices about work
but you are assuming that everybody will do the same sort of jobs that are done presently.

Bill Gates did not leave school deciding to run the biggest computer company in the world.
Nor did Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk or Paul Allen

they excelled at jobs and in industries that had not been invented.

One of my cousins is in Cloud research for Microsoft
the cloud and the internet and Microsoft did not exist when he was doing Maths at Cambridge.

stop pigeon-holing people

Ihategeorgeosborne, I am about to give a generic answer as I don't want to be outed! So...my friends and I who didn't stay with science as a career went into accounting, tax, patent law, portfolio manager and ahem... IT! I think I thought my skillset after uni were problem solving skills, analytical mindset, monitoring data (though I lacked the patience to be a research scientist), project/time management, team working and IT (fledging as it was 20 years ago!). With your background you could do any of these but obviously they all require further study (with v low pass rates) and starting at the bottom.

Thanks novice, you give me hope

BTW novice, your skill set sounds very similar to mine. I too lacked patience to be a research scientist for the same reasons, although I did write a couple of papers. I had a couple of friends who became academics, but their personalities were quite different from mine! I am seriously thinking about doing further study, though not sure exactly what yet. I hope I have a good few years of life ahead of me and don't want to write myself off just yet

The biggest career mistake I ever made was qualifying as a solicitor. I am very glad that as I didn't incurr debt doing it, but it was still 4 years of my life wasted. If I had just drifted after I graduated, I would have found the job I wanted to do by starting on a minimum wage fun job and then moving gradually up and sideways like my former colleagues did in time to get a decent career set up before having kids. I took the "sensible" route and am having to start pretty much from scratch at the age of 40, which is fine, and I still have time to get a career going, but it's harder to get going with children in the way.

I really wish that I had been advised to to do stuff that I enjoyed rather than work that was well paid and high status.

I should say the reason why those professions like scientists is that where further is required the pass rate is much much higher than for non-scientist on the basis of ability to absorb large amounts of data, understand it and successfully regurgitate it when under time pressure so don't find the idea of study daunting. I hold a v senior leadership position now and interestingly although my job is more about strategy, relationships, people and revenues, that same skillsets quickly process large amounts of info in my mind, quickly understand it and make a decision under pressure still stand me in good stead. In your position those are the skills I would focus on.

Molly yes I aimed for the money but I did aim for something I thought I would like too!

Thanks novice. Yes, I found that helped me when I made the transition to IT and consultancy. This was in part due to the fact that I understood processes and procedures and certainly when working in drug pharmaceutical companies and other manufacturers, I was able to help the people I was training in the systems understand how it related to their jobs. I loved that aspect. The problem for me really now is psychological, in that I've been a SAHM for so many years, that I've lost confidence in myself and my abilities. Sometimes, my previous life feels like it belonged to someone else and I just watched it happen, if that makes sense.

Ihate, have you looked at applying for the women returners courses run by some of the investment banks and professional services firms? They're in London but aimed at giving confidence, encouragement and advice to women in your exact position. I do understand what you mean but not from my own experience (I went back to work after mat leave) but from those of friends, dsis and dmil.

Greengrow I have to say that I think you are very unusual in respect of the age at which you started to research salaries and careers. I could be wrong but I suspect that most of us don't really have much idea of what we want to do with our lives so young.

Thanks novice, I haven't looked into that. I haven't heard of them to be honest. That's part of the problem for me, in that I don't really know where to start. However, I do know that I want to do something positive, which is a good start I guess. It is just so difficult to know where to begin though. I also returned to work after maternity leave, but the hours and travelling just didn't work with a baby, and in the field I was in at the time, there weren't really any other options, and certainly not with that particular employer. I know what my strengths are and I know what interests me. I'm not desperate for shed loads of cash, although a little would be nice . I just want to feel like I'm utilising myself to full capacity and at the moment, I'm just not doing that. Thank you so much for all your advice. I really do appreciate it.

Talkin, that is what the head at DS school said on open day, that schools are in fact preparing kids for jobs that don't even exist yet. Had not thought of that, but it makes sense.

Yes, I was always middle aged even when I was ten. I have never had a discos, drink soft of phase. That just isn't how I am.

I think books were one reason I am how I am. I spent absolutel hours reading all kinds of non fiction and fiction as a teenager. All those books have constant themes from the autbiographies - rags to riches or the reverse, all the Victorian novellists, shakespear even. How could anyone have done o levels or even CSEs when I did them and not know about career and money - it's all there from the peasants to the Jewish money lenders. I don't think you can do an English literature exam as a teenager without knowing about career progression and that kind of thing. SO books I will say as much as anything are responsible. My grandfather left school at 12 and read and read and read. So probably there was a family tradition of readers. Both my parents were big readers too.

I agree about change though. I have worked in various firms. I work for myself now. I do new things quite regularly. I wrote 30 books which isn ot in the traditional career path really in my profession. I give 30 -50 talks a year - so that's speaking. In the last 4 year I've acquired a little publishing business of publications which is a good part of my income too. This is all because of assuming I will succeed at everything. For example I could understand why the other editors did not want to take on ownership of the publications - why turn away free money? Because most people are too much of a wuss to take on risk I suppose or think they will fail. I am always sure I will do well.
Anyway the things that also matter to me are the children and being happy and healthy. I am as interested in being alone in nature and the like as all the work stuff. It's all about balance. A very high income in work you adore which gives you the money and power to do what you like is pretty good. Every day I wake up glad I am I , as it were. Things have gone wrong in career and personal life. I am not insulated from life's disasters by any means but I seem to assume they will get better after and bounce back. So it probably all comes back to good mental health perhaps?

Anyway it's past my bed time and I've a lot of work. i wonder if the economy is on the mend? It seems like it from the people wanting to buy a bit of me.

Greengrow, you do make me laugh. It's great to have people like you around. It keeps me grounded

You're very welcome Ihategeorgeosborne, happy to have helped in a small way. just one other thing, have you looked at the women returners website? I first came across it through the 30% club (aimed at getting women into 30% of leadership positions in Britain's biggest companies) but just in case you hadn't heard of it, you might find the resources useful.

greengrow I've convinced myself you're PD James. Or JK Rowling.

I totally agree with women working towards becoming high earners. I'd hate to be working for pin money while my husband climbed the ladder. However, we also need to be realistic and some times the woman's career may need to take the back seat for the good of the family unit. This should definitely be payed back in kind by the man though. The best things in life are still free: no amount of money can make up for a failed relationship, estranged children or neglected parents. So whilst it's all well and good pursuing a highly paid career, it's worth being mindful that we don't pay a high price elsewhere in our lives for it. Achieving this balance is the true marker of success, in my view.