To Consider Giving up US Citizenship?

[NotFunBeingAnAmericanInLondon]

Posting here for traffic.

Desperate to talk to other US citizens settled in Britain who doubt they will be returning to the US for personal reasons.

Am I the only one who's been here so long I didn't notice the FBAR thing? I don't file FATCAs, but I am never sure. What are we supposed to do if our British born, dual US citizen kids have CTFs? I have a SIPP with mutual funds in it, my accountants tell me not to even bother mentioning it now?! Apparently this is a time bomb for later.

Social Security and State Pension are supposed to be reciprocal, but I cannot get any information from anyone.

I used to file my own 1040 forms, but now that there are so many forms to file with the threat of prison if I mess up that I am truly cowed and pay someone else £400 a year to file for me. And I am a housewife with no income!

The state department has just raised the cost of expatriation from $450 to $2500 which worries me even more.

I wonder, should I just give up my citizenship now and make life much easier?It's a lot of worry and stress to carry around for emotional/nostaligic reasons.

Sorry, planning on taking them to the USA this summer I mean.

Don't take them on British passports. If they are eligible for citizenship they are assumed as having citizenship and will need to travel on US passports. They take this seriously and do enforce it.

Your dog dors need to file US tax returns and fbars too like all US citizens. But plenty don't and I have relatives who don't and have travelled back to the U.S. With no problems. I don't think the agencies are joined up at all.

Thruaglassdarkly You may have problems getting your children into the US on UK passports if your DH goes with you on his US passport. Legally your children must enter the US on US passports (I'm assuming they qualify for US citizenship based on your husband's details). You might not get questioned or you might be questioned and warned to not do it again. Or they may be refused entry. It's a pain!

For the taxes, if your DH earns below the earnings threshold I'd personally stay out of the IRS system. There is currently no penalty for not filing so long as you don't owe tax. The FBARs are a bit more worrying if you have savings either in his name or jointly over $10,000 because there are large fines if you are caught not filing. You need to weigh up the risk so yes, you are sticking your heads in the sand, but if my mother hadn't passed away and my financial situation hadn't changed, I'd still be sticking my head in the sand!

It's too late to get them passports and register them at the embassy and we don't necessarily want them to be US citizens. We fly in 8 weeks. Can we three not just go through the non-US citizen section as normal, with our Estas. My kids have never lived there. They needn't know we're even with DH then, as he can go through the US Citizens customs? I don't even want to go now....It's so annoying. We go once every few years to see family and that is all we have to do with the country. What a palava!

Just spotted my many typos! Your dog doesn't have to file anything - although it would be about as logical as anything the iRS do so wouldn't surprise me.

They are US citizens whether you want them to be or not (assuming they are eligible). Tbh I've travelled to the U.S. on my US passport with my two non-US children (not eligible as I never lived there) and not been questioned so your plan might work.

Thanks Taz1212 He is a teacher and earns well below the earnings threshold. We already pay tax on our savings here and on our properties (we have 2 buy-to-lets, one in my name - I inherited it from my dad, the other in joint names - the bank owns most of that though). Just told DH about this. He's furious that the US government feel the need to know anything about his life here. It's intrusive. It's morally wrong. We live here. We pay here. That should be the end of it.

I don't think anyone can give you a definitive answer because it will depend on the officials on the day and how strictly they decide to follow the rules. I have known a couple of people to just get a warning to not do it again.

Tarka and I had just downloaded the forms for my dog to file too .

I might try that plan then - it's always been fine in the past, but we haven't visited the USA since 2009 and all manner of things might be different.

Oh God, if you have a joint BTL definitely try to stay out of the system! You don't want to try to be working that out!

The earnings threshold is also on earned income so you need to be quite careful with any unearned income.

Its really tricky. It's the fbars not the taxes that carry the big fines (as failing to file fbars is a flat fine whereas with taxes it's based on the amount you owe and you probably owe nothing) but if you file the fbars then you are in the system and they will know you are not filing taxes.

I don't know how much "will" there is within the IRS for going after lower income expats who don't file. My accountant says they do want to but he would! I'm very risk averse so I do file (despite being a SAHP) but I know plenty who don't.

This is it, we make so little money on the BTL and I'm a SAHM right now, that the idea of forking out hundreds, probably thousands of pounds on specialist tax accountants and going into debt (which we would be doing) JUST to satisfy the US government that we owe them nothing is completely out of the question.
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Taz yy to the difference between earned and unearned income. Child benefit, for example, is considered unearned and therefore not covered by the exclusion.

Thru that is almost exactly my position except that in our case it is the U.S. Citizen who is the SAHP. I don't earn anything but our rental income (income not profit as that is zero) puts me over the filing threshold). I don't ever owe anything but have to pay an accountant to do the taxes. Only the accountant benefits from this ridiculous situation.

Oh that's in my name anyway. They're not getting their grubby mitts on THAT!!!! Grrr....

If you work and PAYE in the UK, do you then have to pay taxes on your UK-earned income in the States???

So 2 lots of taxes on one income?

How is that fair??

DH has never heard of FBARS - if they want to tell him about something he should be paying, they should write to him and let him know. Not wait for his wife to stumble across a chance thread on Mumsnet.

Tarka how long you been here? Do you have British citizenship too?

Tryharder my understanding is that you may not need to pay twice (double taxation) but you may need to declare it.
But dont quote me on that. I am not expert.

They say that you won't be taxed twice, Tryharder, but there's always the caveat "unless..." following this, and it usually involves how much you earn. If it's above a certain level - not sure how much - then they decide you somehow owe it to them. Just because they can.
It's wrong.

Nolim - it's not like self-assessment here though. They are super unhelpful and read scripts to answer your questions rather than actually engaging with you. We did pay them taxes one year when my MIL died and left an inheritance, but oddly they never bothered us for them again. We thought that we'd have requests to file every year after that, but they haven't.

You shouldn't pay tax on the same bit of income but you some things aren't taxes in the UK which are in the U.S. So for example, even though you pay more tax on income in the UK than the U.S. you can't take that extra bit off the tax owed to the U.S. on your ISA interest.
Generally you won't owe anything because taxes are higher in the UK but there are a few areas where you might - CGT on main home, ISAs, benefits etc. The personal thresholds are lower too I think.

Thru I've never lived in the U.S. only been there on holiday. My mum is a U.S. citizen and left a few years before I was born. I am also a UK citizen.
I actually live in a third country so have the joy of filling in 3 tax returns each year.

Ahhh, well he has no ISA, doesn't get benefits. CGT....not sure how/if that will apply to us if we ever sell our house. Makes me think we should just put all property in my name, as like you say, we pay high enough taxes here already.
So OP, in conclusion to learning all this, no, YANBU for wanting to simplify your life and avoid this whole headache of trying to exist in two different countries.
That said, it depends how much your citizenship is part of your identity. I should imagine that for many, emotionally, it would be very difficult to sign it away. I think I would find it difficult myself. Only you can decide whether the costs outweigh the benefits.
Good luck!!!

This thread has nearly given me a panic attack. I have a greencard despite never actually having lived in the US. Should I have been filling in tax returns and FBARs etc this whole time?

I've managed to find the bastarding thing and the forms required to renounce it. Are they going to make me fill in tax forms etc covering the last 15 years?

QS - No idea on the Greencard/taxes

Thru - if your kids were born abroad you are unlikely to get hassle at immigration as transmission of citizenship varies
photos.state.gov/libraries/unitedkingdom/164203/cons-acs/transmission_tables.pdf

Tax info london.usembassy.gov/irs/delinquentreturns.html