To find the British "inverse snobbery"… weird?!?

[MillieV]

OK - first things first… I'm not a Brit, but have been here for over a dozen years. As an "international", I seem to not belong to any particular class. Hence, I'm not defined by the class system here, and I find it really weird how so many people think.

I mean… in all seriousness... I sometimes feel this place is some alternate universe ripe to be portrayed in the next dystopian novel, where one is meant to stay in their own class bubble, never moving anywhere else. In movies, it's always "snobbery" that's portrayed - rich people looking down on the poor. So I'm so surprised to have found that "inverse snobbery" exists. To be honest, this is the FIRST country I've ever encountered that in (and I've lived in many), below are just some of the symptoms:

• People not wanting to see other people better themselves (shock horror, how dare they?) - this one truly p*sses me off

• People saying things like they 'are a working class family with professional jobs'. Jeeez… what does that even mean?!? So what… your great-grandfather was a miner or something… and hence, you still define yourself as working class? Oh. My. God. How far back do you go? Middle Ages? Or back when the Neanderthal was still around?

• People never wanting to hear about a sport that's perceived as posh (and turn their noses up at any mention of them).

… and yes, don't even mention private schooling.

Can someone please tell a 'Non-Brit' why this is? What's this obsession about?!?

most people now identify as middle class. as we were almost all working class two generations ago, this can only mean that most people do not, in fact, cling to being working class

of course, whether they are really 'middle' class (if 90% of people are, it is a funny kind of middle) but it is definitely not true that for the most part, people continue to call themselves working class if they 'do well for themselves'

Gunz that is so weird. I guess it just goes to show you there are crazy people everywhere.

I think a lot of people in the art world (not all, certainly) are aware of how intimidating it can be and try to make it all a bit more accessible.

Several times I've been at the Tate or elsewhere and glommed onto other people's tour guides or random amateur art experts who speak with authority. They seem to enjoy garnering an audience. Just believing you belong there is more than enough.

as said up thread
even 30 million pound married to a member of the aristocracy Cameron self identifies as middle class

we are all mc now

but we wont be smiling long!
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/class-exclusive-seven-in-10-of-us-belong-to-middle-britain-2247052.html

No need to be sarcastic Guns, the only rude person on the thread was you i think, you started with rudeness and huge generalations.
You started by saying that the working class dont understand arts and in your last post you said that you are educated but dont understand art. Can you see that you contradict yourself?
Yes, Art is about soul and spirit.

Carrot dont you know that Cameron is marxist?? (Joking of course)

you're allowed to say someone is 'posh' but not allowed to observe that another person is 'common'. Why not?

I'm a regular at the Royal Opera House and I have gradually realised over the years that the cheaper the seat, the plummier the occupant.

I think we need to make a distinction between 'bettering' oneself and self improvement.

'Bettering' is about elevating social class. It may mean adopting speech patterns, taking part in particular activities associated with the next class up or attempting to move in particular circles. This is often met with derision as traditionally a person could never change their social status, even thinking you could try seemed a bit dense. It would often be disadvantageous in multiple ways; being sneered at by those in the class they wanted to join because social climbing is distasteful (if you have to try you haven't been born to that class) and snubbing those in their current class. Essentially saying that the lifestyle of their peers isn't good enough for them.

Self improvement is just that. Learning or trying new things to broaden experiences and trying new interests.

This also feeds into the idea that learning new things or being into books is odd or distasteful. If generally speaking, as part of the class system, you stay where you are born. Trying to do better is pointless but it also means that anyone in a higher sphere who had to work to get there, stands out from their peers who attained a certain status through privilege. They are looked down upon because they obviously come from a lower class as they've had to work to prove themselves.

All of this pops up in odd ways with people often not realising the root of that belief.

I'm reminded of something I read about Michael Heseltine (I think), that he was sneered at by some of his Tory colleagues because he 'had to buy all of his own furniture. Don't cha know'

I'm not sure I agree with your definition of "bettering".

Upper class were always our 'betters'. Therefore to 'better' yourself was nearly always about elevating social class. Even now we talk about social mobility (eg elevating class) and 'bettering' our lives. When they talk about this they aren't referring to learning a new language or taking up yoga to improve your life experience.

It's the reasoning why 'bettering'ourselves is met with such hostility in some quarters.

laquitar Please point out where I started with rudeness and generalisations? So far you've quoted me incorrectly, I've pointed out your error but you're still trying to make a point. Please don't put words in my mouth.

And how does being educated mean you understand art? They don't necessarily correlate you know. If it's all 'soul and spirit' as you say then surely education then has nothing to do with it. See the irony here?

Guns i dont want to make this thread about you and me.
Your generalisations i m talking about are in your first post, you can go back and read it yourself.

As for your last paragraph no i dont think that education or professional job, money in the bank, property in the right postcode or land, have anything to do with real Art because real Art is not square.

I hope you will go back to Tate since your son enjoys it i dont think the majority in there are like that man yoy have met.

laquitar I'm not interested in making this about you or me either! but you are accusing me of something you clearly cannot substantiate. I will not respond to your posts anymore, as I was very much enjoying the discussion and hope it continues.

I struggle with the fact that there is an anti-education attitude in some sectors of UK society, which I do not usually encounter in other countries.
I volunteered to teach a free Latin club in a London primary school in a poor area, once a week before school at about 8 am. The club was full of Eastern European children, those of Irish descent, and a smattering of first generation African immigrants. There was no interest from the Afro-Caribbean community nor the white British "underclass". I, and the school tried to see what the issue was (wondering if it was the time of the club for example) but we mainly got the answer "Why would we want to bother with that. He/she doesn't need it." The more recent immigrants, and the Irish community, were of the opinion that if there was something good available for their children, they were going to seize the opportunity.
Just remember "Too clever by half", is an English expression!

Oh fgs Guns!
Everybody can read your post @ 15:21.

I struggle with the fact that there is an anti-education attitude in some sectors of UK society, which I do not usually encounter in other countries.

I've come accross it regularly enough in both the other countries I've lived in. One EU, one Asian. And it doesn't seem "vanishingly rare" amoung the immigrant communities within those countries either.

I'm hard pushed to think of a single aspect of Britian/Britons that is truely unique.

Not all WC people want to be MC. Being WC does not make you a bad person or a thicko who only watches soaps and reads The Sun. You can have aspirations to do well in life but those aspirations don't have to include becoming MC. The arrogance of some on this thread that WC people want to be like them is hilarious.

Chip on my shoulder? you bet your arse I have. Especially after reading this thread.

but usual isn't it equally risible that MC people are aspiring to be WC, as the OP states?

TBH I think you are what you are. I could earn loads , live in the right postcode etc. I would still be WC.

I don't see many MC people claiming to be WC. In fact if MN is anything to go by some posters claiming to be MC seem ashamed of their roots.

Their WC roots*

I agree usual

I am very well educated and earn a lot of money, but I consider myself working class.

I don't want to be MC or adopt their value system wholesale.

Theres loads of inverse snobbery here where I live. I stay in somewhere a bit deprived, and whenever I use 'big words' or try to have a conversation about something slightly thought-provoking, I get accused of being 'posh' by my neighbour who has lived here all of her life. The funny thing is, my family was brought up on about £17000 grand a year, with a family with four children. I dropped out of school at 16, and have never been to Uni, but I would deem myself as a fairly intelligent person with enough of common sense. She is too, actually, but it seems like she goes out of her way to dumb herself down on purpose in other people's company because people from around here are resentful of people who are 'posh' or have money, or are interested in culture. If you have those things then you are an arsehole and not a very grounded person apparently. She wasn't happy when I told her I was looking to save up for a deposit for a house in a better area in the future.

That reminded me of John Prescott's TV programme about the British class system

I think British, particularly middle class, particularly those in the SE, are utterly obsessed with their DCs doing well at school.

But you can't say they did well because you spent a fortune on tutors, fee paying school or even trips to the museum. You have to pretend they are just naturally super brainy. And their success is their due.

I really don't think other countries are as desperate about it. I think parents there aim for a rounded individual rather than a hothoused Oxford attendee.

Hence the faked dismissive attitude to taking DCs to museums/theatre.