To find the British "inverse snobbery"… weird?!?

[MillieV]

OK - first things first… I'm not a Brit, but have been here for over a dozen years. As an "international", I seem to not belong to any particular class. Hence, I'm not defined by the class system here, and I find it really weird how so many people think.

I mean… in all seriousness... I sometimes feel this place is some alternate universe ripe to be portrayed in the next dystopian novel, where one is meant to stay in their own class bubble, never moving anywhere else. In movies, it's always "snobbery" that's portrayed - rich people looking down on the poor. So I'm so surprised to have found that "inverse snobbery" exists. To be honest, this is the FIRST country I've ever encountered that in (and I've lived in many), below are just some of the symptoms:

• People not wanting to see other people better themselves (shock horror, how dare they?) - this one truly p*sses me off

• People saying things like they 'are a working class family with professional jobs'. Jeeez… what does that even mean?!? So what… your great-grandfather was a miner or something… and hence, you still define yourself as working class? Oh. My. God. How far back do you go? Middle Ages? Or back when the Neanderthal was still around?

• People never wanting to hear about a sport that's perceived as posh (and turn their noses up at any mention of them).

… and yes, don't even mention private schooling.

Can someone please tell a 'Non-Brit' why this is? What's this obsession about?!?

The one thing i don't get is that art, theatre, music, books are things that middle class do and working class don't. I find this very bizzare.

But I can totally understand that. In the UK and i'm guessing the rest of the developed world, art is not accessible to everyone, it is very biased towards the very well educated middle/upper classes. Yes everyone can admire art, but to truly understand it requires some prior knowledge. It is also very cultural, in my home country Art is associated with uneducated people with nothing better to do. Why do you think Art museums aren't swarming with ethnic minorities (not saying none of them are knowlegdable about art) BUT there is clearly a cultural barrier there, same thing with the Opera, i've read about people saying they were 'moved to tears' , i don't get it, and find it tedious.

Im not sure if you're aware how much it costs to go to the theatre??? of course working classes are less likely to go, it costs a fortune!, tickets for lion king costing about £88 for a decent seat, again working classes are barred from this by design.

As for books, well if you're not very well read yourself (working class professions also don't tend lean heavily towards reading and writing), you're less likely to even think of buying a book for your child or yourself. An adult who has never discovered the joy of reading as a child is unlikely to suddenly develop an appetite for it in adulthood.

I get a lot of this from my sister's friends. She had a child very young and ended up in a horrible council estate with her DP. They did eventually get married and have two more children and all is pretty good now but due to fairly low income can't afford to privately rent and are v low priority to move to a different area within social housing. As a result she now has friends that she wouldn't have touched with a barge pole when she was younger (she was a right snob as a teenager!!). Most of them are really lovely but a few of them don't like me (I didn't know until my sister told me) because they think I'm "too posh". I find this an outrageous reason to take dislike someone! They have nothing against me personally but because of the car I drive (it's only an SMax FFS!) the house I have and the way I dress they have determined that I am not worthy of their friendship, all down to their own stereotyping. Crazy!

Thats true # Igneococcus# ! Thank you.

I'm saying that 'privileged' people also have problems that aren't solved with money. The same problems than everyone else.

I'm not saying that money doesn't make things easier but tbh once you are middle class, I don't think that the money the 0.6% have is really what is making different to them or make their life easier. If it was the case, you would find that all privileged people are happy, no divorce, no suicide, no ill health. Oh hang on, They still get through all that....

There are a lot of people wo are not 'privilege' or 'posh' that have none of the issues you are talking about -Pity.

What the Op is talking about isn't the 0.6% who own most of the land. It's you and me. All of us on MN. The ones as Baffled said who dare deviating from the norm and 'bettered' themselves.
Tbh that's a nice description of what happens here in Britain. But I still waiting for an explanation as to why people think it's OK to accept it nowadays. Things have changed, there is much better social mobility ion other countries so why? Why anyone would accept that?

Unless it's because as another pp said, there is a need of a revolution but British people don't do revolutions?
Or is it that in Britain it is more important to keep the peace even if it means keeping archaic systems like this one?

GunsRoses
Your post just confirms what i have written.
I am aware how much theatre in west end costs, thank you. But as a theatre lover i am also aware of many cheap and free productions that ar pretty good.

As for your statements that working class dont read, well thats the twattish ignorant attitude i was talking about.

It seems people have accepted that its not hard work that elevates you but 'luck' therefore working harder will not yield any benefits, it is accepted that you will be stuck in your position and so all that's left is to sneer at those better off. Whilst I agree there are those born with a silver spoon in their mouths, i personally don't know anyone in my circle who was, they are mostly hard working immigrants who have studies hard, gained the right qualifications, set their eye on the 'right' career and prospered through it. Yes luck plays a part but you have to positioned correctly first and then luck comes in and finds you.

YY and that's also the reason why schools why a high level of immigrants children there actually get very good results. They believe that by studying, they can get a good job and a better life.

But I can totally understand that. In the UK and i'm guessing the rest of the developed world, art is not accessible to everyone, it is very biased towards the very well educated middle/upper classes. Yes everyone can admire art, but to truly understand it requires some prior knowledge.

I'll never be able to understand this. I understand that art in some forms can be intimidating (a gallery opening), but there is absolutely nothing intimidating about the Tate, for example. It is absolutely teaming with people, many of whom know absolutely nothing about art. And, it's free.

Laquilar why those people who like arts and books but are also 'working class' not comfortable with the idea of bettering themselves then? Genuine question.

I'm also wondering if we aren't mixing being 'working class' with 'money' as my understanding of being 'working class' or even some lower 'middle class' was about showing a clear distaste for books and arts? (Please remember I'm not british, my understanding of classes is coming more from my reading so might be very misguided. In my world, being 'working class' doesn't pre empt you from reading. But then it doesn't stop you from going to UNI, having lunch instead of dinner etc either...)

"Inverse snobbery
Thinking you're better than other people because you're working class, have a regional accent, don't use big words, read tabloid papers, or for other reasons which are opposite to those which would be involved in "snobbery" in the usual sense.
The argument that people who live in "rough" areas are the only ones who "know" about crime and that everyone else should shut up is just an example of inverse snobbery. "

I don't come across this very much but where I live in London is just so full of so many very different types of people that the divisions along class lines you see much more clearly in say rural Devon or Northumberland both of which I know are not quite there.

Most people are pretty tolerant of others in the UK and we are lucky that that is so.

I do think the desire in about 1900 - 1930 and perhaps later of poor working class people to "better themselves", the workers' educational movements, the Durham miners' art works, the efforts of people like my grandfather who read many many books but left school aged 12 in 1892 has perhaps reduced amongst the underclass. I don't think it's down to cost. Many people could listen to classical music on youtube or go to the library walking or on their bike.

I don't think there is a country on the planet (including the USA) that doesn't have some sort of social class system, it's just that the British class system is a very slippery fish to try and pin down. It's about money, but then again it's not about money at all .….

Laquitar You claim to be 'a theatre lover' hence you know about all the freebies. Therein lies your answer.

Please read my post properly, I said working class professions don't tend to lean heavily towards reading and writing, I also said an adult who has not discovered the joy of reading as a child is less likely to develop it as adult. It is a fact that working classes generally read less, and there are stats from Department of Education that back this up as to why working class children are falling behind with reading and writing.

I have a massive problem with the assumption that 'bettering yourself' equates to moving up the social hierarchy.

I quite understand the wish to earn more money. Indeed, I would like to do so myself. But I do not think that being richer would make me 'better'. Just richer.

And while I admit to categorising newspapers according to my definition of 'quality', I hate the way many people divide music, for example, into 'popular' and 'serious', dismissing one type as worthless or boring depending on their assumptions about, I think, the class it is associated with.

Carrot
who are these people who are not comfortable about bettering themselves? Ok i m sure there are few who watch tv all day, whatever class.

My parents (working class) loved books and Arts. Very comfortableabout bettering themselves. After all they lived in 3 countries in order to do that. They raised a child (my brother) who became one of best doctors in Europe. (i am a failure though-grin).

My Pils (also working class) came in UK to 'better themselves' . My mil used to get off the bus on her way to factory to see the Universities. She knew her infant then sons will go there. And they did.
By the way she is not educated herself but she keeps a notepad in every room. When she peels potatoes she stops sometimes to write down her poet before she forgets it.

The poster before said that art requires knowledge. It shows how little she understands Art. It requires soul.

By the way Carrot i am not British either so i am not the right personn to explain british class!

OP it's just socialism. Socialism with its emphasis on seeing "injustice" everywhere breeds envy, and breeds inverted snobbery. Our state schooling system since the 1960s has been riven with socialism so unfortunately the vast majority of people in this country have been immersed in this culture.

It's a form of self defence too - people like to think that they are "excluded" say from enjoying a sport like polo, or a past-time like going to the Proms or visiting a gallery - to save them the effort of trying to engage in something outside their comfort zone. In reality in modern Britain there is very little exclusion from anything that isn't self-inflicted.

working class absolutely does not equate to a lack of interest in arts/culture
i cant even begin to engage with the concept of socialism as a cause of dissatisfaction with one's place in life (at the bottom)

The fact there is a class system everywhere in the world isn't the issue though. The issue as highlighted by the OP is the fact that, in the UK people from a working class background who have now more money and a better job still classify themselves as 'working class' with all the attributes that go with it.
Because of that, people are reducing their opportunities of a better job/a better life/a different life. I see that with my dcs, what they are told they can expect and hope for.
Why would someone from the North of England not go a University in the South of England? Why is that an issue?
For me this isn't dissimilar to saying that women shouldn't try and get some professional jobs because they will just stop working once they are a mum.
In both cases, you are stereotyping someone and telling them to act according to some rules (man/woman, working class/middle class/upper class) with little interest to the person itself and their ability to chose for themselves.

And NO, I have seen such an importance given to being from X class in other country I've lived in. It might have defined what your childhood was but not who you chose to become.

thelovelyboots Good post! I'll give you an example. I'm educated but know very little about 'Art' I don't purport to be an expert on it at all. So ds1 is very talented in art, I decided to broaden his horizons a bit by visiting the Tate. It was clear that there were some very knowledgable people there who knew a lot and where able to analyse styles etc (don't get me started) most of these people where also a 'certain sort' if I must say. Some art works were obvious in meaning but a lot weren't! And we did find ourselves just standing and gazing at some not quite sure what to make of it.

There was one particular piece we saw, made from dead flies, and I quietly commented to ds, 'how on earth did they do that' a man standing next to me who looked well heeled (tweed jacket, cap etc) abruptly and very rudely answered 'THEY DON'T DO! HE DID! Ds and I were too shocked to say anything.

The point I'm trying to make is I can see why working classes may not feel this is something for them or feel welcome, the art world is dominated but the well heeled who can be very condescending. People generally like to go and relax and at places where they are not made to feel stupid, and with like minded people. Obviously I didn't let this egomaniac put me off visiting galleries, we've been to loads since.

On the other hand loads of working classes go to the movies, which does cost money, so clearly the barrier to visiting galleries is not cost related.

I always enjoy watching "Who do you think you are" when celebs go in anticipating that their ancestors were all noble, hoary-handed workers only to disappointedly discover that they had a bit of cash and probably oppressed their maids. Brilliant reverse-snobbery.

I beg your pardon. Art requires 'Soul' not knowledge, see what I mean

There was one particular piece we saw, made from dead flies, and I quietly commented to ds, 'how on earth did they do that' a man standing next to me who looked well heeled (tweed jacket, cap etc) abruptly and very rudely answered 'THEY DON'T DO! HE DID! Ds and I were too shocked to say anything.

This is extremely unusual, don't you think?

The UK swamps in socialism ?!? I don't think you are living in the same place than me. The UK is anything but a socialist country. If you had lived in a socialist country, you would have notice the effect of social redistribution, support for lower wages (NOT the tiny amounts there are here) etc...

Pete and Dud at the art gallery.

Well I don't know, but it was rather off putting. I enjoy education and would have loved somebody who felt they knew better to correct me politely and explain a bit more about what we were looking at. But rather I find sometimes when people perceive themselves as being knowledgeable soulful where art is concerned, their arrogance gets the better of them, and they are rude and condescending, hence there is no real sharing going on.

I obviously have no soul

Basic uninverted snobbery is much uglier than the inverted kind (because you are basically sneering at people being less fortunate than you) so it is less often directly expressed, or should be (except on mumsnet where anonymity allows raging snobbery to rampage).

There are deep cultural differences between classes, as between regions or religions, but it is bad form to approach them in certain ways because one culture is basically one of having historic rights to exploit the other, so it's all rather delicate. If you have a shred of sense, that is.