To find the British "inverse snobbery"… weird?!?

[MillieV]

OK - first things first… I'm not a Brit, but have been here for over a dozen years. As an "international", I seem to not belong to any particular class. Hence, I'm not defined by the class system here, and I find it really weird how so many people think.

I mean… in all seriousness... I sometimes feel this place is some alternate universe ripe to be portrayed in the next dystopian novel, where one is meant to stay in their own class bubble, never moving anywhere else. In movies, it's always "snobbery" that's portrayed - rich people looking down on the poor. So I'm so surprised to have found that "inverse snobbery" exists. To be honest, this is the FIRST country I've ever encountered that in (and I've lived in many), below are just some of the symptoms:

• People not wanting to see other people better themselves (shock horror, how dare they?) - this one truly p*sses me off

• People saying things like they 'are a working class family with professional jobs'. Jeeez… what does that even mean?!? So what… your great-grandfather was a miner or something… and hence, you still define yourself as working class? Oh. My. God. How far back do you go? Middle Ages? Or back when the Neanderthal was still around?

• People never wanting to hear about a sport that's perceived as posh (and turn their noses up at any mention of them).

… and yes, don't even mention private schooling.

Can someone please tell a 'Non-Brit' why this is? What's this obsession about?!?

I spoke with an east European hedge-fund type at rugby this weekend. I told him we wanted to leave London for the countryside. He said, roughly: "there is no way I'd step foot in the home counties - my boss moved out there and got in big trouble with his neighbors for how much money he spent on his cars, the house renovations, the fact that he bought new furniture. They were rude to his wife. They don't want guys like me out there, and I don't want to be out there anyway."

He relayed it in such a way that it was quite funny and I was giggling throughout, but it did make me reconsider. I'm American, will they even let me into the home counties???

I am also beginning to agree with those who have said its a 'caste' system not class, but it's been known as 'class' for so long. I think it's a class system if you can climb up the ladder and improve yourself, moving seamlessly between classes without derision from your previous class nor scorn from the new, but it's a caste system if regardless of your achievements you are not accepted into another class (usually of higher status) but also risk the wrath of your original class. If you are stuck in one class by virtue of birth then it's a caste system.

People do move classes. It tends to take 2 or 3 generations in the UK. Even the royals who used to be limited to marrying other royal princesses now marry commoners. The child of Kate Middleton will not be int he class of his grandmother's mining roots in the North East.

There were proposals to ban the Indian caste discrimination here in the UK as sadly it has been brought over to the UK by some.

I remember at my mother's funeral seeing the contrast between my children and those more distant relatives I had never met who came from the original mining village. Everyone got on. Everyone was polite but there definitely had been a class change.

Also people move down classes. Social mobility means up and down. For some to move up others move down.

I would hope whatever class people have they treat everyone politely and well. Just because someone is different from us in whatever way that might be is not a reason to treat them badly.

Private education is just one example. Private pupils get preferential treatment when it comes to getting a place in higher education or a certain job.

Another example is when you get fast-tracked into a high-flying career because your parents/in-laws/relatives are VIPs. In a private business fair enough. But in state sector it is nepotism. Not exactly legal, but happens pretty often.

So that's where resentment comes from.

As for arts/culture/sports/travel type of thing, its more a matter of choice and preference. It might be perceived as privilege/luxury, but it really isn't. People say "oh, i can't afford holidays abroad, how can you?". Well, i'm an immigrant. Boarding a Ryanair flight and going to visit family isn't much of a privilege, yet its a... holiday abroad.

I'm American, will they even let me into the home counties???

Yes, if you are or appear wealthy.

Dog, it is the other way round. If your parents work their fingers to the bone or you win a scholarship to public school or even if they camn just about afford it the university holds against you that you went to that school and to an extent favour those from rougher schools.

Most City jobs have on line applications where your staring point is UCAS points, then a tough on line maths tests for some etc etcl. Only once you pass all that do you get an interview or day of assessment and the interviewers may well not know much about you to keep it fair. I am not saying there is no preference - factory workers often get factory jobs for their sons etc but bigger organisations do make a lot of effort to get rid of nepotism as no one wants someone who is not bright enough for the job as they would not last 5 minutes whether that's doing surgery or in court or whatever.

I suggest anyone feeling resentful just get their finger out and work hard like most of us who have done well. Feeling resentful does not bring anyone much happiness.

Well, i'm an immigrant. Boarding a Ryanair flight and going to visit family isn't much of a privilege, yet its a... holiday abroad.
with the downside that it's always to the same place and other people manage to visit different places. :(
Including your relatives back home.

There are a lot of folk on Mumsnet who think they're middle class and they're not really.

Theyre working class in new professions. They're one or two mortgage payments away from losing their house.

Hoummous, olives and a trip to the natural history museum don't mean middle class.

There are many social groups that people aren't even aware of - if you start at the top there are aristocracy who think the Queen is lower than they are, then there's the queens level of aristocracy, then there's the hangers on level of aristocracy.

David Cameron is middle class - he's not even got the family background to be upper middle class though he's very wealthy. He's middle/middle class.

And below middle/middle class is what a lot of folk on Mumsnet think they are - so they think they're lower middle class because they're academics, accountants, city workers who earn or live in a decent area.

They're not really lower middle class, they're miles away from middle/middle - and possibly even further away from the vast swathes of people living normal working class lives.

The vast majority of us are working class. We are just a very different working class than the one we grew up in.

I spoke with an east European hedge-fund type at rugby this weekend.

Eastern European countries became independent pretty recently. The transition from communism to capitalism has not been smooth. A lot of present day's "successful enterpreneurs" had been doing something shady in early 90's. So looking at a wealthy person in those countries, you would naturally think "what have they been fiddling?"

I lived in Germany and have many german friends still. There is definitely an element of inverted snobbery in Germany. Less educated people/families turning their noses down at people who go to uni or have 'fancy' jobs i.e. In the media etc. one of my friends' mum is a very successful interpreter/translater), quite intellectual and she experiences a lot of this by people who are less educated. Another friend is a doctor. Her parents are Turkish and moved to hamburg for a village in Anatolia. This friend graduated with distinction and is a brilliant doctor. When she went for an interview at a hospital for a junior doc role, the panel asked her "what's your muse?" I.e. Do you prefer playing the piano or Cello. She responded that she was one of seven children and her father was unemployed when she grew up therefore, no there was no muse adm turned down the job. For me this is an exampleo of snobbery and inverted snobbery.

Sorry on tablet. Terrible spelling

dog I think London is certainly more accepting of difference than the Home Counties MC.

The later is very prescriptive, very Mumsnet.

Authentically "English" people are a vanishing species in parts of London. I live in Fulham which I used to consider very English when I first moved here almost 10 years ago, but no more.

I would say Kate Middleton is a prime example of how hard it is to move between the classes. Even though her parents did well in running their own business, she was educated at public school and all that goes with that and now married into royalty, people STILL like to put her down, constant jibes about her mining background, the fact she is a 'commoner' etc.

People seem to enjoy trying to keep her in her place even though she is obviously moving in different circles now. This is what I mean by saying its more like a caste system, or perhaps its somewhere in between class and caste.

arf at david cameron is middle middle class

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8661964.stm

traces ancestry back to royal family

son of a stockbroker and a justice of the peace

went to same prep school as royals (or some of them)

eton

oxford

Just to add, I didn't take into account the point Greengrow made about it taking 2-3 generations! so maybe little George will enjoy the new status. In my mind a class system is one where an individual is immediately accepted into a new class by virtue of their own achievements and their parents background is not taken into account. So I suppose in Britain they are just a lot slower in accepting this transition.

god that has annoyed me

it is an example of how the upper middles and aristocracy now hide in our midst. so we are all 'middle class' now

although i do agree that plenty of us are still really working class, just the jobs have changed. but the last century saw a genuine expansion of the middle classes. this century is seeing the reverse - a return to the masses/tiny elite.

Not entirely convinced by your argument, Laurie.
Middle classes who are not financially secure is nothing new. They're still not living hand-to-mouth in a working class way.

I take the point that doing a white collar job or having a degree doesn't necessarily mean you're m-c the way it once did, but someone with the amount of privilege DC has is not middle middle.

Surely having a long-standing Eton family legacy must certainly be an indicator towards upper-middle class status. I accept this would largely overlap other upper-middle indicators i.e. peerage, but it appears in DC's case it might not?

peerage is not upper middle

aaaaaargh

there are about eight hundred hereditary peers in the uk, population 64 million

it is not upper middle class to be a peer

(bangs head on wall in despair)

Laurie, care to expantiate a bit more on 'top aristocracy' above the queen? genuine question by the way, could you name any particular family or person ?

that's what they say! queen is a bit common.

I think you lot have no idea how weird it is to hear that 'you can't possibly be mc or up if you don't have the right background' so KM will ahead be seen as a 'commoner' because she went to a public school and her family has mining roots.

Come on! Do you really judge people who what their gran parents did for a living??? So it's ok to look down at the man down the road who by all intent is mc, has the same interest than yiu, so take the same way but because his grandfather is upper middle or upper class than it would be ok to turn your nose at him?
You really don't judge people for what they are?
And as the OP said, how far do you need to go back? One generation, two, more? If my great grand father was uc, does it mean I am too??

I was surprised at the word 'caste' used earlier on but it more and more looks like the UK actually DOES have a cast system that the whole population is happily accepting.