to think I'm cursed when it comes to workplaces?

[kiritekanawa]

Failing, miserable academic here.

One of the many reasons I'm failing is I'm not a very warm, gossipy person. I say hi to people, smile, ask them how they are (and listen to the answer), and then get on with my day's work (which is often pretty extensive). I don't stop work for conversations or long lunches, but obviously i talk nicely if I'm talked to.

In nearly every workplace I've ever been in, I've run up against people who hate me for some reason, and they're nearly all middle-aged women who are drama llamas, and who LOVE a bit of gossip. In every case they seem to spread a kind of self-fulfilling dislike of me, to everyone else, that just grows until I leave.

They usually have all sorts of reasons to hate me, so everything I do reinforces their dislike. Use my desk and filing cabinet? This office isn't all about you you know. Have a clean desk/empty filing cabinet? Stupid bitch isn't going to last, look, she isn't even keeping anything here. Wear normal clothes for an academic? Disrespectful bitch thinks she's better than us and doesn't need to dress up. Wear nice clothes? snobby vain bitch trying to point out she's paid more than us. Talk politely? snobby upper class bitch. Swear? Vulgar disgusting bitch. Ask about their weekend and talk briefly about mine? Whinging boring bitch droning on about her own life like anyone cares. Stay silent and just smile warmly because nothing I do or say seems to be right? snobby bitch who won't talk to us. Turn up to a departmental party? arrogant bitch thinks she's invited, she should f* off. Don't turn up? Arrogant bitch doesn't want to socialize with us and can't get on with anybody. Wear glasses? get them remarked on as being ugly. Wear contacts? get called disablist names for being stupid, because i have a turned eye.

I've had all of these in the last 8 months in my current workplace, but have experienced this before in a couple of different universities as well.

As these gossipy types are usually the superconnected node in the academic research group, they have the opportunity to spread all this to everyone else. I've been watching it spread this time. My boss is totally influenced by the gossipy one, and thinks I'm all the things that have been said - so I have no recourse to anyone to change this. There seems nothing i can do about it except leave.

i will have to read The Tin Men. thanks

yes nomama i did kind of see it as 'small in intellect' but glad you didn't mean it that way. the one thing i cant do is smalltalk about x factor/corrie/towie. we can all talk sci fi on here instead

Just shows how daft you can be and how wrong you can read things, kiri said Malcolm 'The History Man, Eating People is Wrong' Bradbury, not Ray 'Farenheit 451' Bradbury.

noone else will discuss Terry Pratchett with me now altho i guess that is more fantasy than sci fi dont suppose you like neil gaiman?

Is he responsible for Coraline?

Sadly we never got into Terry P. I read a lot of Piers Antony (a lot) and the 2 authors are similar. I think if you enter Xanth before Discworld you feel a bit out of place

Nomama - this is maybe the type of black and white thinking that can cause trouble (have to add not in OP's case necessarily, her work sounds awful). I don't come to work to chat outside of a quick lunch break or occasional coffee, don't particularly like to see my colleagues outside of working hours, and don't have a TV so certainly don't want to discuss Corrie (though do in fact have both Bradburys on our bookshelves). But I spend 50-60 hours a week at work - a lot less than OP, but still a lot of my life - and find it a lot easier if my colleagues are not all faceless. It's hardly uncommon, being that we're apes and all that . Because I'm not a total arse, unlike the OP's colleagues, I don't expect that the people I work with feel the same. But given that some people ARE arses, and as most work involves dealing with people, unfortunately sometimes a few accommodations have to be made and this is just one of them.

Otherwise it seems a shame that a great person with tremendous skills is having a terrible time in multiple workplaces, and almost certainly not getting full recognition for how great they are, based on the lack of a few stray questions about some busybody's weekend / child / cat. It's not particularly fair, but it's also pretty universal in my experience.

If I were you I'd look for a new job. Can you really be arsed with this kind of shit?

It never ceases to amaze me how unsupportive women are of each other in the work place. Everyone seems so... Threatened.

This was an interesting thread that took an interesting turn. I expected you to get flamed, kiri, but everyone has been quite sensible and sympathetic! I just read this article today in the NY Times about women in the workplace, 'Learning to Love Criticism'. Some good context on how women face more personal criticism in the workplace than men but also fear it more. As women we're more socially conditioned to be people pleasers and others we work with are more socially conditioned to expect us to be 'nice'. So when we don't play ball, we face harsher criticism than a male colleague would.

This is how I've often felt in workplaces in the past - people expect me to be 'nice' and indulge in gossip and tolerate others' personal remarks and if I don't, then I fall out of favour quickly. It is definitely a hard tightrope to walk as a female professional. You either fall in to 'bitch' mode where you just stop giving a shit what people think of you or you spend a tremendous amount of mental energy placating everyone and can often end up being disliked anyway for any old random reason...

Workplaces are frustrating, yes?

It's unfortunate, but just doing your job and doing it well isn't what gets you promoted. Bosses promote people they like and people their colleagues like, which is just the blunt truth of it. Generally if you're going to move up in the ladder, you will be placed in leadership roles where you'll be working with other people. So you do need to be able to get along with people, if for nothing else so you have good references when you get your next job.

You can still be personable and breezy without engaging in gossip. Let's see, since you have ASD I'm not sure how this affects you really, but when people gossip try things like "Oh yeah?" and act only mildly interested before gently changing the subject. "Speaking of which did you hear about..."

Not all gossip is bad, there's a difference between harmful and helpful gossip. If someone is in the know and knows a position is opening up, that's good to know. It's always good to keep a light pulse on what everyone is working on, so that if an opportunity arises for a better project you can volunteer.

I have been bullied out of a workplace before because coworkers were being little shits. They were feeling threatened because I'm better at my job than they were and tried to throw me under the bus on multiple occasions. I tried working it out with HR, who refused to do anything except cover their own ass, so I left. The branch where I worked, not surprisingly got shut down a few months later because everyone was too busy focusing on everything but work.

It sucks, but it happens.

Honestly, if you're unhappy with your work environment, I'd start looking around for new places. There's no point in sticking it out with people who aren't going to change. There are plenty of places out there that will be a good fit for you. Ideally when finding a job you're looking for a place that's compatible with you as well.

I have just left an academic role and I would agree that there is something in academic culture that gives people permission to behave really badly in ways I have not seen in other fields. I had a colleague who just would not speak to me - any basic overture from me, like 'how was your weekend' would be just snapped at. I usually get on really well with colleagues and got to the point with this one where I just had to laugh, as she was so extraordinarily rude that I could see it was not me, it was her.

I've certainly seen individual women like this in the workplace superstar perhaps every office has one. But a whole department of people like this I can't even imagine (not doubting your OP, just that it sounds outrageous).

I think it might have a lot to do with the country you're in and I'm surprised you didn't mention in the OP that the language is a struggle for you. This could play a big part. Have all the places you've had a problem been in another language kiri? Can you tell us where you are?

Or, if you are a foreigner who doesn't speak the language well but got the best job, there may well be some resentment. Is that a possibility?

OP, your situation is almost identical to mine! I manage a department where there are 3 members of staff who behave exactly like this. If I try to join in conversations I get the sense I'm being judged. Fortunately for me (but unfortunately for my relationship with them) my children have good educational achievements and jobs, so if they are talking about their children and I join in they label me. Indeed as some of the team have had fertility issues that everyone kows about but none of them have ever told anyone about the mere mention of babies or children is tabloo if they are in the office. My leisure activities are different and when recently I thought I was on the safe topic of the horrors of Ebola virus they responded as if I was point scoring and said they didn't know what it was so why was I going on about it. I might have an easier time if I left them to gossip, do nothing and eat smelly food all day but as it is I don't really have the option. I'll be flamed for saying so but the mostly male environments I worked in before were much easier going and any problems were generally resolved by a trip to the pub after work. It sucks.

AveryJessup
This was an interesting thread that took an interesting turn. I expected you to get flamed, kiri, but everyone has been quite sensible and sympathetic!

Op, not sure if you're reading this thread still, but earlier on I say I would advise you to be open and say to your colleagues that you found some interaction difficult.

Like Avery I'm pleasantly suprised by how this thread has turned, and looking at it again there was definitely a differnt feel to it once you said you had ASD - people offered practical advice and were supportive of you.

I know it's not easy to put yourself out there and lay your vulnerabilities out for people, but I hope this thread does give you some assurance that if people are aware of something, they will usually try and help. Unfortunately not all people are blessed with the innate ability to just "be nice" and need things spelling out to them regarding why someone may behave a certain way - some have obviously taken you the wrong way - completely their fault, not yours, but it is worth bearing in mind in future as you may be able to pre-empt some of this.

Hope this doesn't sound in any way like I think this is your fault.

Hi all - thanks for all the responses. Yes, I'm still reading the thread, just have been working so much I haven't had time to respond. I didn't even get to go home last night - am now at home, and so knackered I can't really think enough to write a response. I'm going to sleep, hopefully not to dream of work...

My sympathies to those who have experienced similar things, or who can't find people to talk about Terry Pratchett (sorry, I'm far too literal-minded for Pratchett or Ray Bradbury, my sci fi and fantasy library stops at John Wyndham ... Now... i wonder if we could get Alan Bennett to write an academic black comedy? now that would be cool... )

Not everyone who has commented is completely familiar with how academic environments work, the relevance of which is merely that academia adds some constraints to movement/ hierarchy - just saying that to explain that some of what's been said here probably sounds extremely odd!

I've experienced this, in more than one work environment. It's like chickens who peck to death a chicken who is a bit different. Fick innit.

Sorry, but that's it imo. If they pecked at you the minute you walked into the office on your first day, it clearly has nothing to do with you.

Go ahead and snipe back at them if you like... and get flayed alive slowly, management looking the other way. You're on your own with this shit ime.

I might be a bit poorly today but your posts made me quite teary. Probably the memory of how unspeakably bleak it is but also huge compassion for the utter misery of you being repeatedly hammered by these truly vile 'people'; whilse working like a dog every hour God sends. It is too bleak and I'd like to surround you with a big bear hug. Which you may well hate so I won't.

I really don't know what your options are re career but the unspeakable misery of this just can't be good in the long run. I know it has taken me years to recover from it - I'm not sure I actually have tbh. This just can't be worth it.

YANBU imo. Yy it's good for posters to explore all potential angles of this - but I recognise it and yes, people really can be that foul; yes, they can be that foul en masse.

I do so hope you find a way to get out if this hellhole sooner rather than later.

This thread has been quite nice to return to this week.

One of my colleagues resigned in a screaming fit and told particular individuals precisely why she never wanted to work with them again. Good thing i missed it or I'd have been cheering her on in a manner unconducive to my continued employment .

Because that exposed a few of their faults to the astonished listeners, these individuals have been taking it out on me. It has been unpleasant to say the least. My boss also hauled me over the coals for apparently disliking my workplace, not integrating, not making an effort, etc.

FFS "not making an effort"? In the past week I have spent no more than 4 hours at a stretch at home, except for one night where, shock horror, I went home at 7pm. All the remainder of my time has been at work or on a train to/from work. The hours worked vary a bit through the year - a lot of the time it is 100 hour weeks, some of the time it is more like 60. I don't work less than others though.

On the point about chatting a bit at work:

In academia, days are often quite unstructured. It is often easy to have a casual chat end up taking multiple hours. People who let that happen, or who do a lot of casual chat, usually don't last as academics or high-level administrators, because they are taking up time that really should be being spent on work. So there tends to be a binomial distribution of people who chat (who have time) and people who don't (who don't have time). Now obviously one can be rude, or not, and that can be while chatting, or while not chatting.

What I believe I see in my workplace is that a lot of the chatting is rude, nasty, critical, and in many cases it's direct bullying behaviour. I am getting criticised for not joining in with this, and being told i "make no effort" because I remain aloof. To me, this indicates that my critical colleagues are bonding via "enlistment", i.e. they bond by getting together to excude someone else. i think this is broken on their part, and I am not going to join in. If I had any investment in this particular workplace i might have to consider whether refusing to join in would be unstrategic, but as i actually have no investment in this at all, i'm going to retain the smug moral high ground and get my work done.

Those with a need for human interaction who think it would be hell working 18 hours a day alongside someone who doesn't chat, should note that the chatters don't work the hours of the non-chatters. The technician I share an office with arrives at 11am and leaves at 6pm and constantly talks about what long hours she works and how hard it all is. If ever I go home before her, I hear about it for weeks afterward with stage-whispered comments about how lazy I am. Why on earth would that kind of thing make me feel like chatting to her?

My sympathy, kiri. I've worked in academia for quite a few years and whilst it's got very good points as well, I did find it a hotbed of bitchiness and snobbery. Very glad I'm out of it. I can't say that I have encountered quite the same level of nastiness as you have, but maybe I'm just thick skinned. There's nothing really you can do to change people's behaviour, just develop a rhino's hide and get on with your career.

Re Intellectual Lillliputians - good phrase

In science academics, there's a fairly even distribution of people who are fairly lilliputian in their outside interests, people who are lowbrow but intense (geeks, sporty types, etc) and people who are a tad highbrow. I make no apologies for being intense, sporty and highbrow, because I don't have any general problem at all with people being anything else.

However, as pointed out above, in the context of a highly critical, nasty workplace - me showing interest in someone's marathon times, or someone else's concert, or someone else's opinions on Salman Rushdie or Alan Bennett or whoever, or someone else's curtains, carpets, house renovations - definitely marks me out to the criticizers as "weird", "snobbish", "thinking I'm better than them" etc.

Interestingly, to the people with whom I'm discussing Rushdie or curtain backings, this just marks me out as someone who shares an interest. If tomorrow they're discussing Genesis and I have nothing to say because I haven't heard it (except in last night's interview on Radio 4), these people are unlikely to have a problem with me having nothing to say, and are unlikely to interpret this as me somehow disapproving of "lowbrow" music.

Unfortunately, I don't often get to talk to these people, and spend a lot of time with the ones who see my conversational interests as somehow the mark of the devil.

sorry to hear it is going from bad to worse but at least someone else has told them how awful they are

i really take issue with the whole 'chatters/non chatters' though (obv i am a chatter ). maybe that is true for your workplaces but our hardest working staff are those who 'network' the most
we have a secret breakfast group at 7am at work and all have a good natter over coffee. we tend to catch up on quite a bit of work related stuff at that time, influencing the wider programme, but none of us would ever think of this as being a 'meeting' or 'work'. it is really though.

maybe this is a 'science' thing? arts are chattier?

oh and - "It's unfortunate, but just doing your job and doing it well isn't what gets you promoted. Bosses promote people they like and people their colleagues like, which is just the blunt truth of it."

Yep, I completely agree. I had absolutely no problems with getting a fellowship in an Oxbridge college with my manner, my appearance and my interests: and it was clear that I fitted in where others might not. It was a lovely, gently place that welcomed people from the poshest academic aristocrat to the awkwardest, most badly-dressed student with minimal English and odd ideas (and yes I'm aware that Oxbridge colleges aren't generally seen like that by the outside world, but many of them are like that on the inside). If only my funding hadn't run out I'd still be there and I'd still be happy.

Here, it seems that to be liked, I have to make a lot of shallow, nasty jokes at others' expense, attack other people for their laziness frequently, be xenophobic and patronizing, and - yes - be one of the chickens pecking the outsider to death.

sanfairyanne - we may just be defining chatting differently.

To me, a bit of "what was on tv last night" is ok over morning tea or lunch. And yes, it does give you ways of relating to colleagues that don't come with "what brand of PCR tube should we buy". But spending most of the working day talking about other people's personal lives or peccadilloes - to me that is not what work is about.

The nice, successful academics I see (mostly not in my current workplace) are perfectly capable of a polite chat, showing an interest asking how a colleague's kid/ sick mother is, whether a holiday was fun, whether a student's marathon or concert went well - but they won't initiate a long rambling conversation about it. The tossers I'm dealing with here don't really show that kind of interest - they'll spend hours bitching about so and so who is clearly the devil because - oh my god - he plays in an orchestra. But they'll never say "sorry I didn't make it to your concert, I saw the poster in the tearoom - how did it go?".

You're being buttered ready for the lions by your boss. You do know, don't you, that it wouldn't matter what you did, said, who you are: they have it in for you. It's their sport. And the boss is in on it!

They are snivelling, small-minded harridans; cackling pantomime witches. And I pray, pray, pray you're out of there miraculously quickly. And that that office is in the path of an errupting volcano and they end up a pile of ash. Type of thing.

Sorry about these people, OP. They sound despicable and immature. I hope it won't put you off academia altogether though; I spent 12 years in various research labs and found university science departments to be wonderful places (bloody endless job insecurity aside).

I left to join the media - now that is full of sharks.

springydaffs - i'm inclined to agree... i am leaving in a couple of months, going back home to DH, where there aren't any jobs in my area of science (well, there are some jobs, just none open and no funding and shrinking prospects). Can't wait to be back with DH, who has been supportive by skype for nearly 2 years. He agrees that 2 years ago it looked like the right thing to start taking positions overseas because i couldn't get a job where he is - and that it now no longer looks like the right thing to do.

i am thinking i'll do freelance programming or editing or something - sitting at home during work hours will be a lot more comfortable and less irritating than my current workplace.

I'm just so, so tired and fed up that to be honest, leaving academia looks like paradise. I'm sure the outside world is a bit boring compared to being paid to do cool blue-skies science, but there's nothing stopping me reading interesting stuff after 5pm... and I might feel less depressed and more interested in the world if I got enough sleep, actually lived in the same house as DH, etc.

Sicaq - respect. I couldn't cope with the media...