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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think I'm cursed when it comes to workplaces?

100 replies

kiritekanawa · 26/09/2014 18:24

Failing, miserable academic here.

One of the many reasons I'm failing is I'm not a very warm, gossipy person. I say hi to people, smile, ask them how they are (and listen to the answer), and then get on with my day's work (which is often pretty extensive). I don't stop work for conversations or long lunches, but obviously i talk nicely if I'm talked to.

In nearly every workplace I've ever been in, I've run up against people who hate me for some reason, and they're nearly all middle-aged women who are drama llamas, and who LOVE a bit of gossip. In every case they seem to spread a kind of self-fulfilling dislike of me, to everyone else, that just grows until I leave.

They usually have all sorts of reasons to hate me, so everything I do reinforces their dislike. Use my desk and filing cabinet? This office isn't all about you you know. Have a clean desk/empty filing cabinet? Stupid bitch isn't going to last, look, she isn't even keeping anything here. Wear normal clothes for an academic? Disrespectful bitch thinks she's better than us and doesn't need to dress up. Wear nice clothes? snobby vain bitch trying to point out she's paid more than us. Talk politely? snobby upper class bitch. Swear? Vulgar disgusting bitch. Ask about their weekend and talk briefly about mine? Whinging boring bitch droning on about her own life like anyone cares. Stay silent and just smile warmly because nothing I do or say seems to be right? snobby bitch who won't talk to us. Turn up to a departmental party? arrogant bitch thinks she's invited, she should f* off. Don't turn up? Arrogant bitch doesn't want to socialize with us and can't get on with anybody. Wear glasses? get them remarked on as being ugly. Wear contacts? get called disablist names for being stupid, because i have a turned eye.

I've had all of these in the last 8 months in my current workplace, but have experienced this before in a couple of different universities as well.

As these gossipy types are usually the superconnected node in the academic research group, they have the opportunity to spread all this to everyone else. I've been watching it spread this time. My boss is totally influenced by the gossipy one, and thinks I'm all the things that have been said - so I have no recourse to anyone to change this. There seems nothing i can do about it except leave.

OP posts:
kiritekanawa · 26/09/2014 19:30

ItsDinah - I have no idea why so many academics are so awful, but it has a lot to do with lack of sanctions for unacceptable behaviour, combined with a very uncertain employment environment. There's this weird market effect where people are often secure in the knowledge they're the world expert on their topic and are thus personally indispensible, but also are insecure in the knowledge their university is haemorrhaging staff and they have to undercut everyone else in order to not be the next one to be made redundant and not replaced in the next round of staff cuts...

Actually I'm not that young - I'm 38 and quite a long way out of my PhD. Being a scientist, I'm still a postdoc because I haven't given up yet... While i Have had nice male mentors who are willing to read draft manuscripts and talk about science, I've never had a female mentor, and I've never had a mentor who was willing to discuss workplace politics or difficulties. I think they all know what it's like but have no idea what to do about it....

OP posts:
kiritekanawa · 26/09/2014 19:34

Funkybold... good idea Smile

I'm aware I come across as rather wet in this whole interaction, but in a workplace where things are so unequal, it's very difficult to know how to treat these situations without laying oneself open to accusations of bad behaviour, because some of the people who work less and are paid less within this environment are always looking for reasons to complain about hte academics' behaviour towards them... that burnt me badly in a previous job, where i was told I was coming across as cold, arrogant and snobbish, and that i was treating the person like they were a lowly servant. Actually, it was their job to help me - I thought I was doing the right thing, and HR thought i was doing the right thing, but it all went tits up and was all my fault in the actual workplace.

OP posts:
sanfairyanne · 26/09/2014 19:43

are you talking about academics or academic related or admin? or all of them? dont you have your own office?
speak to the union about workplace bullying maybe?

kiritekanawa · 26/09/2014 20:21

sanfairyanne and ItsDinah - I've been being deliberately unclear about the relative qualifications, because I'm very likely to get a massive flaming when I point out that the main actors here are usually long-term technicians who have been there for ever, and who were originally employed without a university degree.

So I come in with my snobby PhD and years of being a postdoc and my conference trips and my going off to give lectures in other countries, and my having lived in 7 different places since I finished uni and worked in more, and my CV a bloody mile long because i"ve been a postdoc for bloody ever and am just never going to get a permanent job... and of course these people just look at me and hate me because my life is more exciting and better paid than theirs.

Of course what they have that I don't, is all the stability, the family life, the weekends, the holidays, the pension, etc etc... and they get to go home at 5pm whereas I'm sitting in the lab on Mumsnet at 9.30 on a Friday night with another 4 hours to go on this experiment before i can go home, and I'll be in here tomorrow morning as well....

OP posts:
Nomama · 26/09/2014 20:27

Ha! I came here to set something up. I was hired with 5 others. But my specialism is the organisation's specialism. There had been many internal applicants. They had 2 previous advertising campaigns before they hired me... so the internal applicants all knew they had been found wanting.

You can imagine how popular I was Grin.

You really aren't the odd one out. You're just surrounded by, erm, how best to put this, ah! Intellectual Lilliputians Smile

Hobnobissupersweet · 26/09/2014 21:19

Why are you running across the techs so much, surely they are not in the same office as you. Every university I have ever worked in( admittedly out of academia 10 yrs but DH still in it) the techs had their own, very coy offices and post docs etc in different spaces, similarly in the labs.
However if every lab you work in the techs are being awful then I suspect a little bit of introspection would no go amiss.

Hobnobissupersweet · 26/09/2014 21:19

Very cosy offices!

PersonOfInterest · 26/09/2014 21:42

Sounds awful and weird. Who the fuck are these people?

Hard to imagine and don't really know what to say.

But if there was a comment to my face like "this office isn't all yours" I would probably take them on, politely. "what do you mean?, are you suggesting I can't put my bag there?, is there an alternative place for bags? who said? I'm going to be putting my bag here then" Just to make it less easy/attractive for them to target you.

They sound like bullies. Perhaps if you take them on they'll back down.

I would record and report any personal slurs/insults.

Viviennemary · 26/09/2014 21:43

It does sound a horrible situation to be in every day. Can you not just ignore this silly behaviour and not interact with them unless it's to do with work. I'd start looking round for an escape route as there is no point in being unhappy. Are you on a fixed term contract or can you leave whenever you like. You don't need to try to be their friend.

Phineyj · 26/09/2014 21:56

Sounds awful. Maybe you should wear headphones all the time and/or be super smiley, over-the-top nice in a passive aggressive way. You could have some fun with it. I work in a large school where there is (as you describe) a gap between the pay and expectations of the senior management, teachers and support staff, and it is not like this at all. However, when I used to work in the arts it was a little like this. What is it they say, 'the battles are bitter because the stakes are so small'?

Parietal · 26/09/2014 22:05

Being a postdoc is very tough. I've done it.

Can you get a great big pair of headphones and listen to music and ignore the bitchy comments? Just get on with publishing as many papers as you can, because the more you publish the faster you can get out of there.

Also, make friends in other labs - are there other postdocs you can go for coffee with? getting one nice coffee or lunch break in a day with someone you like will give you the energy to get through the rest.

And start applying for lectureships. Or fellowships. whatever the next step is, keep looking out for it.

Finally, if your university runs a mentoring scheme, look into it. they may be able to fix you up with a senior woman who can give you advice. Or there may be other 'women-in-science' things going on (look out for Athena Swan activities'. these things take you away from the bench for a bit, but can be worth it to have the wider contacts etc.

calla23 · 26/09/2014 22:53

I also went through about 10 years of being a science post-doc and have some experience of working in a less than friendly environment. But, the best thing is to find something...anything in common. There must be something you can connect with them about? I had to use common interests in hill-walking or cats or yoga just to find something outside of work to talk about. It is best to befriend the techs if at all possible....you can learn a lot from them even if they don't have a PhD! And as you've already experienced, life is tough if you're on different sides.

Shinysideup675 · 26/09/2014 23:05

"and of course these people just look at me and hate me because my life is more exciting and better paid than theirs."

You can tell all this just by the way they look at you? Im not surprised you rub them up the wrong way if that's your attitude, tbh. You do come across as being hard work.

JulyKit · 26/09/2014 23:15

kiri - I agree to a large extent with what other posters have said about taking a look at yourself. You don't know what your colleagues think, the fact that you assume you have some kind of insight into the minds of these 'types' suggests that your attitude is in fact quite arrogant and self-centred, but... are you depressed? And if so have you looked at UCU pages on academia and stress and depression? You sound like you might be suffering from it, and maybe should take a step back.

Universities are in crisis at the moment. Unless you're somewhere unusually privileged and rich, everyone is overworked,everyone is scared for their future, everyone is stressed to fuck.

With the greatest respect, since you think you know what your colleagues are thinking, has it occurred to you that maybe they know what you're thinking, that maybe they know you see them as dowdy middle aged 'drama llamas' fuckining awful crappy phrase ... maybe they know that you seem to see yourself as, you know, better than them ... Cause, you know, this probably doesn't endear you to them, right?

JulyKit · 26/09/2014 23:28
Blush

Just read more of your posts, kiri.

But... the only thoughts you're articulating are your own. Your colleagues may be slightly irritating (whose colleagues aren't?). If they're really as rude as you say, answer them back.

But don't try and second guess what they might be thinking ... You sound like you've done so much speculating on what they could be thinking that you've persuaded yourself that you really know. You don't.

Why don't you address the factual issues with your work - like the number of hours you work in a week? Those things are likely to be making you depressed. If you haven't done so, look at UCU's website. Join if you aren't already a member. Get some support to address real issues rather than creating your own by inventing colleagues' internal monologues.

Higheredserf · 27/09/2014 00:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sanfairyanne · 27/09/2014 09:13

which bitchy comments did you actually hear? in the exact words you used?? if they really said those things, then honestly you should complain to hr. if it is a projection from a look, maybe there is a touch of paranoia creeping in, and, perhaps a cause, like depression, as others have suggested. sorry to internet diagnose, just a suggestion. if they are using those actual words though, that is awful.

manchestermummy · 27/09/2014 09:47

No real words of wisdom but I wanted to tell you that I know exactly how you feel.

I work in HE (professional support - I don't want to out myself but not an academic, not admin but fairly important function). This is my third HEI and despite working there for a good few years, have never "fitted in". The stage whispers with backs turned - check. The organising social stuff loudly in my presence but with backs turned - check. The complaining that I never socialise - check. The actual statements that I am incompetent ('What does Manchester know...') in meetings with senior managers - check. The complaints that no-one is available for x function then refusing my offers of assistance - check.

My presence is barely acknowledged; rooms silence when I enter. My 'crime'? I was appointed to a position senior to many in the dept from outside the organisation. None of them applied. Since then, I've worked and worked and worked to improve my skills, my knowledge, have done everything that has been thrown at me and worked above and beyond consistently. It has been noticed and despite one lot of mat leave and being pt, my career is going in exactly the direction I want it to. And they hate me for it.

I have no 'friends' at work (Ihad one but she was made redundant). My manager can tell when I am having a shite days and is supportive but beyond that, I go it alone. I probably do come across as aloof, but I have a job to do, and I want to do it well for the benefit of my career but also the students.

Sorry for the essay Blush

Brodicea · 27/09/2014 10:00

Hmm, having worked in support roles (admin) - I have some perspective, if this is mainly coming from support staff, on how this might be arising - different to inter-academic bullying.

We had difficult relationships with some academic staff, those who treated us like 'servants'. Although as you say, really we WERE there to support THEM - so I can see where they were coming from! But rather than feeling jealous of their status per se, we felt motivated by different things in the workplace… We were more concerned with relationships at work (team, belonging, praise) and some academics were more concerned with getting results - this means that oftentimes some very committed academic staff would focus on achieving their target rather than 'chit chatting' - when you have so little time and such a tenuous position, this is totally natural. But the support staff felt undervalued by this lack of social input. Those who we liked often took just five minutes to talk about something in the news (not necessarily private or boring stuff like DIY!) or some university change. This will seem totally pointless to you when you are focussed on a task, but might make things a little easier in the everyday.

Also it could be galling when SOME academics were totally useless (when I supported research grants!) and we ended up doing lots of work for them (i.e. writing bids) - I think when you are in the position of actually contributing to academic work of some kind, without the credit, you feel a little bitter and therefore seize on any slight as proof of inequality. I imagine it's exacerbated in a tech support role, because they are having a direct impact on the execution of your research - but they don't feel valued socially. I think when support staff feel under appreciated they can huddle into cliques and covens and the problem worsens.

The problem fundamentally is that the university is a hierarchy, so from your point of view everyone slots into support / delivery / leadership roles - but support staff have not entered the academic hierarchy per se, their careers, just as valid, are in a different bubble. The support staff are not therefore 'failed' academics (some are!) but have their own value in their own right. Maybe seeing them as part of a different professional structure might help.

RandomMess · 27/09/2014 10:06

I've worked as admin in a science please in a large mainly female team and I can say they were collectively horrendous and awful towards me. Unfortunately I think it is a female thing - large gang are together have worked together for years and any female newcomer is "the enemy" especially if they work hard, do well etc. add into it that you are much better qualfied, experienced etc. etc, and your onto a losing game.

My life improved immensely when lots of them happened to leave and the few remaining needed someone to chat to... in the meantime I had made friends in other departments but it was absolute hell for years.

RandomMess · 27/09/2014 10:10

The people we supported who we had little respect for were the ones who were rude and critical and didn't follow the rules... oh and never acknowledged our contribution when generally we were a very helpful and productive team - not even a "thank you"!!!

hamptoncourt · 27/09/2014 10:15

kiri I do agree with PP that you do have to consider yourself as the common denominator here. There must be something you are doing at work that is rubbing people up the wrong way.

I work in academia, don't want to totally out myself but I head up a Politics Department and have lecturers and admin staff as my direct reports, so it's definitely not science. However, as you can imagine, some of my lecturers are a real handful! When I started there were some surprised faces as I don't look like my peers. I dress sharply and never leave the house without a full face of make up. There were rolling eyes at my BBC accent. But I just stuck with it, was pleasant to everyone, even people who were downright rude to me.

Now, they are sort of used to me I guess. I would say I am pretty popular. BUT, I stuck to just being me. In your OP you make it sound like you are one person one minute, and behaving very differently the next. Maybe people find you unpredictable and that is part of the problem?

Are you a union member? They might be able to help, as you do appear to be being bullied. It must be horrible for you, but I fear that unless you apply some serious introspection, a similar fate might await you at your next job.

manchestermummy · 27/09/2014 10:26

I've recently helped myself by moving offices. Spare desk available, new person coming in, Bob's your uncle. It means I can avoid the situation . Not being aware of what they say is helping enormously.

kiritekanawa · 27/09/2014 10:27

just a quick return as I am in the middle of experiments - I'll come back this evening when I have more time to respond.

Thanks to encouraging people for encouragement, and commiserations to those who have said they udnerstand where I'm coming from.

To those who think i"m coming across as aloof - I probably am. I am miserable, I feel hunted, I have different interests from most of the people here, i'm not great at the language here, I am beginning to realise I'm seriously depressed, and I have ASD. All of that contributes to me coming across as cold. However, I'm miserable because from the beginning, this workplace has been extremely horrible.

To those asking if i"ve heard all this or am inferring stuff from a look, yes, i have heard the things i've said, out loud, more than once, and had them repeated back to me by other people beyond the one with whom I share an office. Re my interpretation of the exciting life and payscale stuff - I have had direct comments about those too, so again, I'm not inferring this from some internal monologue (though I acknowledge that i am now depressed and miserable enough to have one of those running along quite effectively).

To those saying "surely you have your own office" - no, noone has their own offices here, and it's actually pretty normal in science that noone would have an office but all would be in one big room, or seated round hte edges of the lab. I share an office with a principal investigator from another group, and the technician from my group.

I'm aware that on here i have come across as snobby about technical careers vs. academic careers - I didn't express that well, and that crapness at explaining things like this is part of my problem. I think of a technical path as a totally valid and viable path htat has its own advantages. I totally agree that one can frequently learn a lot from techs who have decades of experience.

Though in this particular case, the tech has more of an admin role because she's been moved sideways and knows nothing about what this group does in the lab, and while I try to ask her questions about how stuff works, she gets angry with me for asking questions and being stupid and thick because I don't know how the system works here and don't necessarily have the vocabulary down pat for all the admin.

The previous case where I was told I was treating someone like a servant - I was doing everything i could to acknowledge her input and knowledge, and to praise her. I tried to make things very transparent, wrote protocols for her to follow, had weekly meetings, documented everything, was polite and friendly and chatted when spoken to - but i was too busy to initiate the hour-long gossip sessions about colleagues' private lives, which she clearly felt were necessary, quite apart from the fact i think that kind of gossip in the workplace is really inappropriate.

To the one person who said "find something in common" - that is of course excellent advice. I've really tried to do it, here, but they treat that as intrusion and thus another reason to hate me. With the previous case mentioned above it was even worse because our thing in common was that she'd grown up in the town where I had previously worked - one with a large "town vs gown" divide - and she hated me because she hated "people like me" on principle, and went round telling stories about what tw*ts the university types all were and how i must be like that too. So i'd go in to the tearoom ready for a polite chat over a cup of tea, and she'd be there, talking about how much she hated my type, and others would be sympathizing with her and shooting daggers at me - and would sit in silence when I tried to join the conversation.

I'm leaving soon - and leaving science. I just can't cope with workplaces like this.

OP posts:
whoopsadazy · 27/09/2014 10:30

OP, I've had a fairly varied career from taking in working at HEIs along the way. I don't doubt that some people can just be nasty. I've not encountered groups of people taking against someone unless that person, is lazy or takes credit for departmental work or is arrogant or is incompetent etc. It's just not normal behaviour for a group of people to display an open dislike for someone for no apparent reason.

This sounds horribly like "victim blaming" - that's not my intention. I echo what other posters have said though - is your interpretation correct? Are you projecting what you think they think? I also agree with the suggestion above to record instances as this will not only be a contemporaneous record of events (should you need it) but it may also add perspective. If it's a list of things like X gave me a funny look, or Y stopped talking as I approached, then you may well me misinterpreting things. If it's more like A called me a dozy bitch, B told me to move my fucking stuff then it's clear cut you ARE being bullied, but a clear record will help split out what IS actually happening versus what you THINK may be happening.