to think I'm cursed when it comes to workplaces?

[kiritekanawa]

Failing, miserable academic here.

One of the many reasons I'm failing is I'm not a very warm, gossipy person. I say hi to people, smile, ask them how they are (and listen to the answer), and then get on with my day's work (which is often pretty extensive). I don't stop work for conversations or long lunches, but obviously i talk nicely if I'm talked to.

In nearly every workplace I've ever been in, I've run up against people who hate me for some reason, and they're nearly all middle-aged women who are drama llamas, and who LOVE a bit of gossip. In every case they seem to spread a kind of self-fulfilling dislike of me, to everyone else, that just grows until I leave.

They usually have all sorts of reasons to hate me, so everything I do reinforces their dislike. Use my desk and filing cabinet? This office isn't all about you you know. Have a clean desk/empty filing cabinet? Stupid bitch isn't going to last, look, she isn't even keeping anything here. Wear normal clothes for an academic? Disrespectful bitch thinks she's better than us and doesn't need to dress up. Wear nice clothes? snobby vain bitch trying to point out she's paid more than us. Talk politely? snobby upper class bitch. Swear? Vulgar disgusting bitch. Ask about their weekend and talk briefly about mine? Whinging boring bitch droning on about her own life like anyone cares. Stay silent and just smile warmly because nothing I do or say seems to be right? snobby bitch who won't talk to us. Turn up to a departmental party? arrogant bitch thinks she's invited, she should f* off. Don't turn up? Arrogant bitch doesn't want to socialize with us and can't get on with anybody. Wear glasses? get them remarked on as being ugly. Wear contacts? get called disablist names for being stupid, because i have a turned eye.

I've had all of these in the last 8 months in my current workplace, but have experienced this before in a couple of different universities as well.

As these gossipy types are usually the superconnected node in the academic research group, they have the opportunity to spread all this to everyone else. I've been watching it spread this time. My boss is totally influenced by the gossipy one, and thinks I'm all the things that have been said - so I have no recourse to anyone to change this. There seems nothing i can do about it except leave.

Oh and re unions - I'm not in the UK. When I was, I was a union member, and was also at a fantastically wonderful (large, rich) institution that had great employment conditons, counsellors, mentors, the lot. I am currently at an instution that has none of that, and thus, I have access to precisely nothing.

Also, I can't report bullying higher up the chain, because my boss is immature enough to join in with a lot of the crap, and she is head of department. For example, she is the main one to make the disablist comments about me obviously being "subnormal" because i have a turned eye. I've said directly to her and her tech that this is totally unacceptable behaviour, and they have just laughed and told me I clearly don't understand the local sense of humour because i don't make enough effort with the language.

Have you considered getting a new job? I worked in about 8 places, including in academia twice and never experienced anything that nasty.

Oh Kiri you should have said in your OP that you were on the spectrum. It makes it all so much easier to understand.

I hope someone with relevant experience can come along and give you some meaningful and practical advice.

I am sending you a very unscientific and unmumsnetty hug. And

Crossed post With OP

hamptoncourt - as a hoD - you recommend serious introspection. Do you have a feel for what I need to change here?

I agree that it's likely this awaits me at my next workplace (whatever that is - unlikely to be academia of this sort) unless I change. However, I'm clearly broken in a way that just rubs these people up the wrong way. Can you see what the problem is?

Can anyone see what i could reasonably be expected to achieve here to fix this kind of situation? I feel too blocked in by it all to know what to do. Everything I try to do seems to be wrong. Gossip more? don't try so hard? Thicker skin? more attention early on to criticism? less attention to criticism? ....?

kiri I am a bit reluctant to wade in here as I know very little about ASD. However, my gut feeling is that it might make it harder for you to empathise and to appreciate some of the finer nuances in personal communication?

Now that you say you are trying to deal with all this in a second/third/whatever language, I can see it would be pretty easy for it all to go horribly wrong for you.

For what it's worth, nothing you can have done justifies anyone criticising you because of your eye. That is just horrible.

If I were your mother I would be saying "Come home Kiri."

Oh love!

Do you know, the one thing I recommend people do is be open. So if you do go to a new place, the same ways as if you had a hearing impairment you might say you need to see someone's face when they are talking, say at the first opportunity that you find some interaction difficult and that you're aware of it.

My last-but-one boss said something like this to me when I started working for her (there were on,y 2 of us in the office though so maybe different). She just came out and said she found small talk difficult and I wasn't to take it personally. We got on fine.

Hope things get better for you.

Just a shot in the dark, but maybe you appear to have no interest in other people. You say you respond politely when spoken to, but maybe you never ask other people about themselves, showing friendly interest in their lives? This is very different from gossiping. That would explain people thinking you are aloof, too good for them or whatever.

And what whoops said, which was much better advice!

Actually your colleague do sound horrible.

I think in this particularly situation your depression is making it incredibly hard for you but it is very likely that a huge issue is them rather than you.

Having worked with Vets and Scientists for a looooong time we are completely aware that many of them have very very quirky traits and possibly are on the ASD spectrum. That is why they are incredibly good at what they do in terms of research etc. I had one top person who asked my EVERY month the same question about an aspect of his project finances - I mean OMG drove me nuts but do you know what it wasn't his forte but he's a bloody fantastic research vet.

There is a huge difference between those who are aloof/not great at social interaction and the ones who are unpleasantly critical and just rude!!!

I think you are particularly unlucky at the moment that the team you are part of is overly influenced by your colleague that has issues. If they can't be pleasant to a colleague even if it is someone they don't like - who has the issue????

I would spend some time researching a good therapist, one that you click with so you have some RL support to deal with how you are feeling.

if those are all actual comments, then it is your work place that is broken, not you, and i really feel for you if there is no hr/union support. get out before your self esteem drops further would be my advice

in the uk, while academia is bitchy, at least direct comments like that would not be tolerated if you complained.

i would have thought, sorry massive stereotype, that science in general would be fairly welcoming to those with asd, so perhaps you just need to find your niche in the science world rather than give up on it completely

Hi Kiri As soon as I read your post I wondered if you have ASD. The reason is because I have experienced very similar in most places I have worked. I have felt a hostile vibe from individual staff from the get go, as I am being introduced. I have been bullied and shut out of the group. It is very confusing and hard to know if it is you or them. It has happened to me in all types of job situations so I don't think it is to do with acedemia. I got it working in a charity shop too. Luckily there are usually people who are helpful and kind too!

I work for myself now so my contact with people is for a limited time so it works for me. Good luck. :)

That sounds like a horrible experience. Nothing you could have done or any way you've come across would merit what you are describing. It sounds like a change is in order.

In future, is there a chance that you could find ways to do a little more 'self disclosure'? As pp have said quiet can come across as aloof and as Mr Darcy discovered, if you are better off or more educated than those around you as well, people will assume the worst and some small minded and insecure people will act out. Self disclosure is a horrible American term I know, but a useful concept - sometimes it helps to share a few small vulnerabilities (maybe one of these could be your challenges with small talk).

Reading between the lines, it does seem that you (and certainly Nomama) do look down a little on people who need more social interaction. However to take another perspective, work takes up a huge proportion of our awake lives, especially when people work as many hours as you do. For more sociable people (like me) it would be torture to spend so much of my time with people I had no kind of relationship with, even if they're not my best friends. It can then be hard to work alongside these more closed people which can make you more inclined to believe gossip.

Unfair I know - but on the plus side, a few choice shares might make your working life a little smoother and most likely your path a little easier - my partner is in academia and continually talks about how political it all is, which makes me think that you must be pretty spectacular to have got as far as you have already and that with a few more connections and hopefully a much better new workplace you will be even more stellar!

Yup, that's me. I look down on everyone around me. I am such a fucking snob!

Actually, I just don't want to waste my employers time gossiping. I come to the office to work, not to socialise. Why does that make me the bad guy?

I could say that people like you, Patience, cause more work for people like me. At the end of every day a certain amount of work has to be completed and it is people like me who pick up the slack, when people like you are chatting. If you need more social time, take a pay cut and work less hours, find a group outside work to socialise in - that being what leisure time is for, not working time.

I could say I care about your feelings of discomfort at not being able to chat about as much as you feel inclined to like people like me because we don't - as in not at all!

But I don't. I just steer clear and don't pass judgement... as you have! And it has irritated me that you have "read between the lines" and, using your own need for social cuddles as a yardstick, have condemned at least 2 people you don't know as snobs!

Thanks! Maybe you want to reconsider that? Maybe not!

surrounded by intellectual lilliputians i think you said, nomama?

socialising usually increases workplace productivity, as humans are generally social animals

businessjournal.gallup.com/content/111766/news-flash-workplace-socializing-productive.aspx

non academic article

I honestly had no idea academia was known for being bitchy! Is there no way you could say something like "I'm still here you know" or similar when they have their backs turned and are gossiping? I'd be so tempted to!

you should read david lodge - he has academia sussed. or terry pratchett.

anyway, a counter argument for nomama, maybe you would prefer this article

www.theonion.com/articles/study-finds-working-at-work-improves-productivity,2318/

Sorry didn't see the third page of posts. Just to add they do sound horrid and incredibly immature.

Academic work environments are the tenth circle of hell these days. Rife with unprofessional behavior, low standards and out-of-date / toothless HR policies.

I used to work at a prestigious UK university in a professional support role, the kind of role a lot of 'failed' academics go into when they finally crack and opt for a pension, steady salary and hours instead of constant overwork and insecurity. A lot of women were in the role because they found it harder to succeed anyway in our rather macho research institute and often sacrificed prestige for better job security, maternity benefits etc.

These women were NOT happy people! Some of the most dysfunctional people I ever met worked there, truly horrible to be around. No need to go into details but there was terrible workplace bullying, sexism, discrimination, all pervaded by a generally negative atmosphere and tension between the support staff and academics. The women academics had it much worse and only the rare few with great social skills were able to balance their need to impress senior academics with an ability to placate the raging insecurities of the support staff, mostly women, who reserved most of their wrath for other women for some reason.

It was truly toxic work environment and it sounds like yours is similar. I have similar issues to you with work - middle-aged women hate me, I don't like gossip and while I try to be friendly, in general I struggle to trust others at work due to prior experience so I keep myself at arm's length. I'm seeing a career counselor at the moment and she has been appalled at some of the tales I have from this former workplace.

So this is just a vote to say don't discount the notion that 'it's not you, it's them'. It sounds like a pretty toxic workplace. Maybe you would be better off out of there? I know post-doc jobs are thin on the ground and you've already moved country for this one but it's not worth staying somewhere you're miserable. My biggest regret in my career is staying around in my former toxic workplace for too long. It damaged my self confidence and enthusiasm and I only wish I had left sooner and found better people to work with.

Thanks everyone. After another day at work (at least weekends dont inlcude horrible colleagues, mostly), I'm too tired and I will respond to this stuff tomorrow or more likely monday. Some extremely valid points here, and some useful help. So thanks all.

PS sanfairyanne Michael Frayn's The Tin Men is by far the best academic novel I have ever read - having wolfed down David Lodge and Malcolm Bradbury years back (still like them )

I agree with the not staying if you don't have to!!!! A sideways step even for a year or so whilst you regather yourself without committing career suicide?

But, sanfairyanne, the Intellectual Lilliputians are self identifying, in the Real World. They are are more likely to want to keep up with the Joneses, agree with the latest fad/law/loudest person... all the soaps, reality TV etc etc.

People who don't (like myself) are seen as The Enemy, Outside and dealt with as such. Not liking populist stuff is automatically labelled as snobby and superior.

Oh! I read that post back. Did you think I meant small of intellect - stupid?

That wasn't what I meant. I meant they like/enjoy/understand stuff I have no interest in and that is why I am vilified. Maybe kiri is seen the same way. She says she doesn't share their interests and they don't share hers. She has said now, she is into old sci fi (as am I) and that does tend to put you 'out there' a bit.