to want to never do anything for my 2 dc ever ever again. Inc no dinner tonight.

[staples]

So 2 dc started a sports club (last year) (at their begging). Costs quite a bit annual fee. I took them most times in the beginning because I had an appointment in that direction so it fit well time/route. I no longer have this appointment and they (14 and 15) are more than capable of going on the bus.

They haven't been for ages (summer holidays, clashes etc). dc1 had major tantrum last week about getting bus. He didn't go. He is angry about having to get bus cos it's longer. I explain why should I drive him, sit around for 1.5 hours and drive him back just to save him say 20 minutes?

So, this week, same again, except both dc having this tantrum. Ds2 usually gets grumpy but once he's used to the idea is all smiles and ok. Not this week. Ds1 however really massive tantrum inc throwing his sports stuff all over the entrance floor (and leaving it there so the entire entrance is covered in his crap.

I suppose at least they went.

but I am so angry they expect me to run around after them. Maybe I have been too soft/a bit of a mug. I don't think I've been that bad, truly. I wouldn't describe myself as a doormat at all. They have to help out and do jobs. It's just, like in this example, it was no real inconvenience for me to take them, now it is, and they are TANTRUMMING and genuinely seem to think I should give up 3 hours of my time to save them a bus journey which isn't much longer than the car journey.

So how do I respond, other than murder. I feel so angry. I can't even think of any consequence - confiscating phone is just nightmare for me as often need to get hold of them. Tried changing wifi password but that was just a total pita for me coven the tv is on it and spent the entire bloody evening last time cos the router went funny. And the printer still isn't happy. Fuming at the total lack of respect and outright anger and fury they thought it was ok to dish out to me. I want to really stamp this out.

I did a sport 3 days a week from the ages of 11-16. I got the bus there and back every time and would only ask for a lift if it was lashing rain or a problem with the buses. I appreciated the fees my parents were paying so that I could go and with them both working full time and having 2 other children, I understood that it was up to me to get myself there if I wanted to do it.

I think your kids are being quite ungrateful and disrespectful. Even now, my 6 yo is trying all manner of activities at the moment but it is made very clear that once we have paid for a term, she must go to every class. She respects the fact that they have to be paid for.

They are being teenage brats. Stand your ground and NEVER give in to tantrums. Tell them you said no and why and then tough, get the bus or don't go, (in which case they refund you for the missed lessons). Except that sports gear that is thrown gets binned in future.

I would like to tell you they will grow out of it but ds (22) had a massive sulk and strop at the weekend because I would only drive him and his stuff back to Uni on the day that suited me not him (ie my only free day in a fortnight). He actually tried to nag me into doing a 5 hr round trip (with dd (7) in the car) after work so he could see his girlfriend and get to sports training in the morning! I bawled him out bigtime and called him an ungrateful brat.

Re the phone, tell him from the outset when he'll get it back, then there's no need for him to ask in the first place.

I do think there is an element of normal teenage rebellion about it, but that doesn't mean you don't need strategies for dealing with it.

Beyond what's already been suggested I'm not sure what else you can do, although if this particular issue is ongoing then canceling the activity and getting him/them to pay back anything you are out of pocket would definitely be something I'd consider.

But I am prepared to be told I should take my dc. Just what's the best solution for youngest?

Youngest gets to eat out every week. Well you and your youngest.

Drop teens off at their club then go with youngest to place of choice to eat.

Or give them a lift there only, let them make their own way back.

But as they are taking up your time they then have to go without wifi for a couple of hours another night. You don't need to change the password, just unplug it. You can always run a cable to the TV.

So, how long to issue punishments that are effective and useful?

Well, there's part of your problem. You need to be clear how long you're taking their phones away so they know. That way if they ask you can tell them they know when they'll be getting them back. If you make it vague and allow them to ask and negotiate it, it makes the punishment on their terms not yours. It's not really an effective punishment if they get to decide when it's given back.

I'd do something like "In X days if you're being good I'll give it back. That means doing x, y, and z" If they fail to do x, y, z keep it another X days.

Also, skip this feelings and how it makes you feel crap. They're teens, not Oprah. Empathy is not going to be high on their list of priorities. Stick to consequences and putting a foot up their ass. Set firmer boundaries and don't let them get away with this sort of crap.

I think you all need to sit down when everyone is calm and talk about it. If it is the only lift they get all week then could something be worked out. Is there another activity ds3 could do in the same area at that time ie swimming etc or could dc3 and yourself go out for something to eat? If you went swimming you could do shower and pyjamas (been there, done that) and get a takeaway on the way home ds 1 & 2 could pay for their own.

In return could they look after dc3 (play with, do an activity with, help with homework or do bath and bed) for a couple of hours once a week.

My dss are 18, 17 and 8 and I do run round after the older ones quite a bit but we have little public transport. In return they help with ds3. However they would never tantrum or be unkind to me to get me to do this. That needs to stop. Ds1 and dh clash a fair bit!

Yes they are your children and yes they are your responsibility but yes it is your responsibility to help them develop appropriate independence skills.

They are old enough to catch a bus to an activity once a week and you shouldn't be manipulated into time consuming giving lifts.

Next week give them instructions to catch the bus and be busy out of the house with DC3 when they arrive home/leave for the activity. Don't be visible.

And seriously you're not a hotel/chauffeur to these young adults. If they are rude, don't cook for them or wash their clothes or do any other services you provide. Confiscate all precious IT equipment. Even the TV

Or if they want you to give up an hour and a half of your time, they have to both give you an hour or two each of extra jobs. Maybe they have to cook you and your DC3 an evening meal at the weekend

Give them back when the apology is sincere and the mood has lifted. Punishments should be short and effective and remain connected to the original crime. IF ds2 achieves that sooner, he gets it back sooner.

Ps tell them how to earn back their phones. It will add to the tension if they don't have a sense of how and when they can earn them back - with no sense of ending, it makes a miserable, indefinite punishment seem unfair and make you the bad guy rather than the teacher of life lessons.

Improving empathy and maturity - agree with the other suggestions plus an talk about adult responsibilities, as in "now you are older you get to do x, y, z but in return you cannot expect mum to run around around after you. Why do you value Mums time so much less than your own time?"
Try asking them "why do you think I should run you there when there is a bus?" If the answer is "because I can't be bothered getting the bus" or "it takes too long" you've got the real reason, which is they can't be bothered!
Yes, teens can be selfish, but this is a case where there is a perfectly good way they can get to this activity.
I'd say and do all of the above and the tell them that as young adults they have the choice of going by bus or not going at all and then leave it up to them with no further discussion about it. Both are old enough to make their own decision and to travel independently.

But I am prepared to be told I should take my dc
Why? It's an activity they want to do which costs a lot of money. The least they can do is get themselves there and back.

My DS (similar age to yours) attends a drama group weekly which he chose to go to. I also have a very young DD who needs to be in bed before he gets home otherwise she'd be too tired to get up for school the next day.

DS gets the bus there and back. Another thing- he's disabled. He manages fine catching the bus. He attends his drama session then returns home.

At 14 and 15 children need to start becoming more independent.

I agree with what KatieKaye said. ^
Ask them directly and calmly why they think you should be giving them lifts. If they say because they can't be bothered then tell them that you can't be bothered cooking for them. Tell them that you hope you think that's fair.

I had the same from my teens at that age. Withdrawing the right to food was always the bottom line and it worked.

My approach was, "If you live in this house, you abide by the rules - otherwise there are consequences". They did seem to understand this once it was explained to them every other day

I don't have much advice, but I just wanted to let you know I really feel your pain. I am really struggling with my 14 year old DD at the moment - laziness, attitude, arguing, but of course can be lovely. My nearly 18 year old DD is now lovely most of the time. it does get better, but it's not fun whilst you're in the thick of it. Teenagers seems like adults in some ways, but are so unbelievably selfish and lacking in empathy at times. So hard.

You need the book how to talk. Sounds like communication here is very child to child rather than one of you being the adult. Don't explain state. Then repeat.
We have a non negotiable array of things they just have to do. We do kind things for each other so they want to reciprocate. No rows no hassle.

It sound crappy for you. But I think going back to basics with how you communicate is the key.

(Plus remember on Mumsnet parents of toddlers are very happy to dish out advice on parenting teens!!)

Do you think that it would work if yousay that they will get their phones back x hours after a nice apology, end of the sulk and good behaviour in the interim? Ds2 apologised last night so he gets his in 48hrs (or whatever interval), ds1 will have to wait longer. He may complain that you are favouring ds2 but as long as you are clear about the criteria for the countdown you can point out that next time he just needs to apologise sooner for unreasonable behaviour.

I've got an idea. They will get their phones back after they have caught the bus to the activity and back next week without being rude.

How about comprising? You drop them off, they make their way home? In return they could help look after dc3 while you do something on the weekend, when they have more spare time?
(naive mother of small ones here! But regularly deal with teenagers in sec. School)

your thread stopped me in my tracks, as I was just pondering whether to go for a 3rd dc who would be 6 yrs younger than my two dds.

was just thinking how it would affect them as teenagers when they have a primary age sibling....
any wise words or warnings?
is it such a logistical nightmare that you would discourage me?

end of hijack!

I would rise above the glowering and rudeness, sort of dismiss it as silly behaviour you won't respond to (whilst seething inside but DC doesn't need to know this).

You might find as they get older that one DC takes after DH, possibly DC1, and DC2 after you. Hence one you find easier to understand than other.

How far away is it?

Can they bike?

I assume that they knew the lifts wouldn't last forever & when they started back they'd be bussing?

Could you take them there and then they get the bus back?

somuchtosortout mine are 18, 17 & 8. The starting again with a baby/toddler was no problem. The starting again with primary school/homework/activities drives me mad. I feel too old for it (although I am old and haven't been well which doesn't help). He is, however, a little ray of sunshine and the older two are very good with him.

I have agreed the they get bus there and I collect. Had talk about manners/ behaviour. All ok. 10 minutes later. Literally. D's gets angry with db not helping with ckearing away dinner. Shouting and swearing at him. Won't stop to let me deal with it. Do I send db away (to tidy his own room) and d's has to clear up alone. D's literally shoulder barging me on way past and not spoken to me since.

Withdraw the agreement to collect them. If they can't behave decently they don't deserve lifts.

Make clear who clears up dinner (both together? Take it in turns by night?).