To think we should not get involving in bombing Syria / Iraq

[WetAugust]

Enough is enough.

You cannot change an idealogy with bombs dropped from 10,000 feet.

We have no end game. Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya are still in a mess from our last efforts at 'helping'.

We have spent decades lending support, training etc to neighbouring oil rich States that are very well equipped with the latest in war machinery. Why have all that kit if they never intend to use it and are content to leave the fighting to other powers?

This is essentially a civil war driven by religious hatred and weak, cynical governemnets in Iraq and Syria.

If there really is this threat to us in the Uk let's spend some of this money we have so readily for war and beef up our entry and exit points to the country.

I don't want us to take part in any more wars in the Middle East

I don't disagree with you but...

Morally, how can we sit back and do nothing?

How?

Yes, by all means purge terrorist factions in the west. Meanwhile turn a blind eye to the atrocities being commited?

You're not wrong but I don't know what's right either.

It's a difficult issue OP because everyone is ignoring the elephant in the room - Islam itself.

So we can bomb the complete and utter nutters in ISIS, but they'll be replaced by more. Worse we have 100s if not 1000s of other nutters inside our countries. All Western governments are thus held hostage by the thought that action in the middle east will have repercussions at home from our Fifth Column of Islamists.

I've seen some of the videos that ISIS have posted, not the beheading ones, but the casual massacres of 100s of people including women and children. They are truly some of the worst things I have ever seen. I have no doubt that ISIS need obliterating from the planet. It would be better if Arab nations did this, but if they're not going to step up then we in the West probably ought to.

We should combine this with strong border control (not going to happen while in the EU) and a strategy for combating Islam domestically, but I fear things will have to get a lot, lot worse before action of this kind can be taken politically.

This is not at all comparable to Hitler or the Third Reich. That was a nation believing in the leadership and crazy ideas of one man. ISIS believe that what they are doing is permitted by their interpretation of Islam. Other Muslims disagree.

you may not like that particular interpretation but it appears that a large swathe of the Sunni community think their interpretation of Islam justifies their actions, no matter how many other imams tell them otherwise. That's why I said you cannot bomb an ideology.

This bombing is a hopeless cause that will achieve nothing. To the poster who asked me what if it was my son who was beheaded, can't you see that that heinous action was shown to get us to join in the war. They want US and UK boots on the ground. they want to portray us as Crusaders We are playing into their hands.

The only people who will get rid of ISIS are the Sunni tribes that live in the area, who are currently 'hosting' these murderers and who will, in time, revolt against their extreme interpretation and deal with them themselves.

It's no good arming the Kurds or the Iraqis and expecting them to fight a proxy battle against ISIS. The Kurds will only defend what should be Kurdish territory and they know they will not be rewarded for doing so, it would still not give them their Kurdish homeland. The Iraqi army has had years of the best training ANC kit available and ran away rather than fight. I think it was George ambush who said what was the point of fighting for a country when it's own population went prepared to do so.

My own prescription

get Saudi to stop financing the spread of Wahabbism that is creating fundamentalists across the world
Stop arming these terrorists
stop buying the oil they produce
Quarantine the area by blocking transport infrastructure
Provide humanitarian relief
Get Saudi Jordan and other nations in the area to take any military action necessary
Stop calling them jihadis
Stop showing their videos
Call them what they are - murderers

And as Jeremy Corbin gas just pointed out Saudi be heads people in public every Friday.

Says it all for me really

You are RSI right about the elephant in the room Glossor. what they believe may be utterly heinous and unacceptable yo us but we are judging them by our values. It's their belief system. If we intervene we will be accused of being Crusaders and that gives them a perverse justification.

Well said WetAugust, 100% agree

I hit the send by mistake. What I'm trying to say us that what they are doing is abhorrent by any standard you set, religious, human rights, anything. put somehow a large number of people think it's ok and I really can't understand how anyone brought up i. The west can deny what they are doing in the name of ISIS is evil

I don't think YABU, as it's your opinion OP, but I disagree with you.

Of course I oppose the idea of war in general, and disagreed with the last war in Iraq. However this time I think involvement is needed.

Nelly and BabyLeopard I agree with both of you. My DH is in the Forces, DS1 passes out in 2 weeks. My stomach is in knots.

Unless you can define involvement and state what objective involvement will fulfil and how a successful involvement will be judged, then saying we must be involved is the sNe as wringing your hands and saying something must be done.

We're already involved. They have taken innocent civilians hostage and killed them in the most appalling and public way. It must be appalling to have a son or father killed in combat in a way, but I cannot possibly imagine what it is like being a family member of one of those poor men who were paraded and beheaded via the internet. To sit back and do nothing is not, I'm afraid, an option.

*war, not way

Nothing can help those poor men that they murdered. they are dead Nothing can help the hostages they currently hold, not even boots on the ground.

The best thing we can do is stay out of it and not present them with any more potential hostages.
The public mood is being manipulated into thinking their is assistance we can provide. There is none. There is nothing we can do. If we bomb they will just be token bombs probably using up our stock of our Best Before May 2015 missiles.

You can compare it with the Third Reich - there does seem to be a preference in the UK to think that the Nazis were just top brass of Hilter and the top party officials and the bulk of the German population didn't support fascism, but the reality is Hilter was elected. He, his policies and ideology was widely supported within Germany and across Europe. Vast number thought he was right, right up until the war was lost.

You could have looked at Germany during WWII and pointed out what a huge % of the population supported this ideology, how many people in high positions were very strong supporters of fascism, that it would be impossible to run the country afterwards without working with fascists and accepting this was their beliefs.

Fighting Isis isn't a separate Middle East war, its effectively a continuation of the on Bush & Blair started, we can't just walk away now. I think we were wrong to get involved in 2003, but now we have, we can't just walk away from a mess we made.

I can't see how bombing is going to help. If IS don't have bases and are basically placing themselves amongst the civilian population, surely all that will happen is that innocent people will also get bombed - in other words, the very people we are supposed to helping. So, it seems obvious that the logical conclusion will be troops on the ground, but they will be going into what is effectively a civil war, and outside intervention in civil wars rarely ends well. In fact, it tends to cause escalation.

I agree with you Mary that the majority did support fascism in those countries. We got involved when the fascists started to take over other non fascist countries. Would we have big involved if the fascists had stayed within their own nations? Theres plenty of evidence to show that we were aware of the Holocaust but did nothing about it.

Where I disagree is that we have responsibility to sort this out.

Some of the MPs who have spoken today have stated that this is an Islamic problem as the various sects try to establish and enforce their interpretation of Islam. Until Islam becomes tolerant of its various sects then there will never be peace. Other MPs are saying its nothing tondo with Islam, which I think is ridiculous as if the group is being called IS, and their people are being called jihadis and they follow Muslim rituals and believe hat what they are doing is acceptable under Sharia law I think we need to accept that it is an Islamic fundamentalist group. it must be very embarrassing to modern mainstream Muslims to see their religion hijacked by these arseholes.

But we cannot change what someone believes by dropping bombs on them it requires education And some of these murderous motions have been educated in the West which makes their actions even less understandable. Kill a few with bombs but they are already churning out replacements in the madrasahs.

Interesting to note that Finland has exported a disproportionately large number of these jihadis, going by population size.

Also, I'm not sure you can compare IS to the Third Reich. The Nazis were a democratically elected government and had great popular support. IS are not elected, and do not enjoy almost universal support in the regions they operate in.

I really do care about what is happening in the region. I just dont see how bombs will stop them. I also don't know what will.

Whatever we donor had to be all or nothing. No halfhearted bits and bobs. So either stay completely out of it or go in and fully commit to taking out as much of the opposition as quickly and robustly as possible.

Bloody phone! Whatever we DO.

Remember Gulf War One, when the US and it's allies bombed the fleeing Iraqi Army at Mutla Ridge. One pilot described it as a turkey shoot. The Allies could have marched right into Baghdad.

But they didn't. they stopped, because they knew that if they toppled Saddam the whole country of Iraq would fall apart as the Sunnis, Shias and KUrds that Saddam collectively ruled with an iron fist would start fighting between themselves. So they left Saddam in power with a predominantly Sunni regime.

Gulf War Two saw the overthrow of Saddam and elections. The govt was sectarian and and the Sunni dissatisfaction with that regime led to an uprising. There numbers were enhanced by these so called jihadis some of whom are or were Al Aquaida in Iraq. Before them became ISIS IS ISIL - take your pick. There were outrages before ISIS if you remember Falujah. we should not be surprised at the barbarous behaviour we are seeing now. we saw the same during GW2

And now we're on the eve of Gulf War 3 which will be just as ineffective and damaging as the previous 2 forays were. And all they can promise us are air strikes and a bit more training for the Iraqi army. When what we need is to stop the spread of the Wahabbi ideology that was also responsible for 9/11 for Madrid bombings for Lee Rigby for the London Tube bombings ....... ISIS, Al Quaida whatever you call them doesn't matter they follow that same ideology.

Completely agree with Wetaugust.

I don't see this action solving anything and instead it will increase risk of retaliation on this country.

Let others get involved for a change

I am actually angry and frightened too by this. 3rd Iraq War

I'm very angry too. These stupid MPs stood up one after another and expressed their doubts and then voted for bombing.

I hope they van live with themselves. They have sealed the fate of the hostages.

YABVU. This threat is evolving far more rapidly and powerfully than before. We absolutely cannot sit back and do nothing about this, whatever the rights or wrongs of how we got here. The resources IS has at its disposal, their knowledge of governance, professional propaganda machine and ability to attract so many to its perverted cause, are unprecedented. This represents a global threat, these people are not to be reasoned with. They chop heads off. They subjugate women. They persecute minorities. They destroy historical sites and places of cultural significance. They have a stated aim of enslaving the whole world. They have BILLIONS of dollars.

Prepare for more harrowing scenes of execution.
The hostages fates are now sealed.

The bombing is an act ill thought out and ill considered which will have ramifications for years to come

You could be describing Saudi Arabia.