To think we should not get involving in bombing Syria / Iraq

[WetAugust]

Enough is enough.

You cannot change an idealogy with bombs dropped from 10,000 feet.

We have no end game. Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya are still in a mess from our last efforts at 'helping'.

We have spent decades lending support, training etc to neighbouring oil rich States that are very well equipped with the latest in war machinery. Why have all that kit if they never intend to use it and are content to leave the fighting to other powers?

This is essentially a civil war driven by religious hatred and weak, cynical governemnets in Iraq and Syria.

If there really is this threat to us in the Uk let's spend some of this money we have so readily for war and beef up our entry and exit points to the country.

I don't want us to take part in any more wars in the Middle East

I agree with bodhranbae the atrocities ISIS are committing are similar to those of the Nazis and Khmer Rouge, potentially worse.

Action absolutely has to be taken, the alternative to sit back and allow them to continue their behaviour is unthinkable

I also agree this is akin to the 3rd Reich. There have been enough reports, videos, photos to show this is no ordinary civil war.

I can't sleep at night for thinking about what is going on. And yes, I do blame the UK and the US for it as we should never have destabilised Iraq.

I don't see how we can avoid intervening now. It's not the time to say "we don't interfere any more".

Isis is not an organisation. It's the local Sunni community aided by a few home grown and foreign fighters who have exploited the Sunni dissatisfaction with the Shia biased Iraqi Govt. are we going to kill the whole local community. You should listen yo experts like Frank Gatdner on the been for a true picture to this conflict. I was behind the WMD excursion that was based on the dodgy dossier as it turned out. I do not believe we should intervene now. we are being spun and not questioning this sufficiently.

There is a pattern if you look closely

1. Build up a dictator or extremist group which can then be used to wage proxy wars against opponents. During this stage any crimes committed on these proxies are swept under the rug.

1. When these nasty characters have outlived their usefulness, thats when its time to pull out all the dirt from under the rug and start publicizing it 24/7. This works best when the public has no idea how these bad guys came to power.

1. When the public is begging for the government to do something, a solution is proposed. Usually a military intervention, loss of certain liberties, or both.

When reading these threads I'm always reminded a book I once read about all of the reasons the Allies gave for not intervening in the Holocaust, even though they knew it was going on. I for one would rather be on the right side of history when it comes to trying to prevent genocide.

It's a religious war. It's local Sunni community enhanced by misguided jihadis that have been fired up by extreme form of Islam that they think permits the obscene actions that have taken.

They don't have our mind set. They don't have a western modern human rights based culture. Apart from the westerners the majority have positively medieval ideas based on religious law. Now I hate sharia and these extreme fundamentalist views but bombing this group will not change their views, will make the UK less space and is just playing into their hands as they intended with those gruesome videos designed to outrage the UK and get it to enter the war, They have now achieved that. we are being manipulated.

The people who should be sorting this sort are the people who caused it. Saudi for exporting the hate of Wahabbism, Qatar for funding them, Iraq for discriminating and victimising those Sunni groups and Turkey, as part of its NATO obligations if other NATO members really are at threat, as we keep being told they are.

Theevis no end game, no exit strategy, W em should no by now that after I ran and after Afghanistan and Libya that you need a clear idea of what you want to achieve and. Clear idea of how to leave a peaceful country behind. We have in such plans. Si we are just dabbling before we walk away or are forced to put our troops on the ground when air strikes alone fail.

Everyonevis wringing their hands saying that something must be done. I agree. But this is not the way to go about it.

I don't understand how bombing will help, more likely to make things worse.
It seems like a politicians response to the "we must do something" crowd rather than a carefully thought out military strategy to really help the people who are suffering.
Of course bombing is better option for American/UK military because they're much safer in their planes than on the ground fighting but what's the point if its unlikely to help the situation?

On the fence here. Half of me thinks its not our land, not our people and if someone abroad bombed the uk because of something we did how would you feel....then the other half of me sees the beheading of innocent people, the burying alive of woman and children and the general fear alot of people have on a small group. I really dont know whats for the best and hate to be the obe in charge of making thus decision. I think its a case you cant win either way. (Removes splinters from my bottom).

It allows them to bomb the oil installations that this group have taken over. we are tole that this group are obtaining millions of pounds each day from the sale of oil from the oil fields they have captured.

Q. Who is buying this oil that is supporting a terror group. Get that country organisation to stop buying it.

Thwynwill bomb infrastructure to stop the group,moving around and increasing the area under their control. Only problem is that they have already been bombing and thebgruomhasxontinuedvtongain ground and is now 40 miles from Baghdaad.

Yes Iraqi govt asked for help but that would be the puppet administration that we recently installed No surprise they did our bidding in asking us for help them , thus legitimising any military intervention we now take.

The people,we want to kill will be hiding in hospitals and keeping their tanks in residential areas. We cannot take the risk of bombing those areas and if we do we will be presented with pictures of dead civilians. At which stage the same hand wringers will chastise us for taken the action they urged on us. we've seen it all before and we have not learnt from our mistakes.

This is a religious and ethnic war that we should stay well out of. There are many neighbouring countries with modern effective weaponry that could bring this to a swift conclusion but will not because if sectarianism or ethnic considerations.

This is the mess that we will be jumping into with no idea at all on how to extract ourselves.

It's a horrific and hideously complex situation. And one that's mostly of our own making.

And yes, 'something' needs to be done about it. But bombing the shit out of them is a crude, stupid and bombastic answer. Does anyone believe this will achieve our aims? Protect the victims and increase domestic security? Of course it won't, it's much more likely to be counter productive.

Our politicians have nothing to offer in terms of intelligent, creative problem solving. Admittedly, it's a very difficult situation, but it's depressing to see how shambolic and ill thought through their approach is.

Shambolic is a good description.

According to Cameron this will go on for years and future Prime ministers will also be dealing with it. that doesn't sound like decisive action to me.

Saudi caused this in part by exporting its particular medieval version of Islam and Saudi therefore has a respondibility to kill the monster it created. It has state of the art weaponry including air craft sold to them by the UK. They don't need the 6 Tornado bombers that we are planning to use. What we are doing is tokenism that will backfire badly on us.

If you want to stop ISIS then start by purging the terrorists within our midst who are radicalising our young people.

Send that fucking profiteering murderer Blair out with a target on his back to sort out the the he's had a massive hand in encouraging/enabling.

Sort out the shit, phone corrects that every time.

I've just listened to Galloways speech in the commons debate.

How will bombing stop IS? It's a genuine question because I don't know what we should do.

I know what is going on is utterly horrific and abhorrent but to me it's a Hydra and I think that the consequences of bombing will worsen things tenfold. I think that it is exactly what they are trying to provoke us to do.

I don't know the solution though. We've stuffed up (again) and we are reaping the consequences.

What did Galloway have to say?
Anything constructive or just the usual finger pointing?

The smart thing to do would be to extract ourselves from this now. We have to try and be impartial wrt humanitarian element which is so hard for us as a nation in general. We don't seem to grasp that these people don't really think like us they see death as an honour and sacrificing lives as necessary. We approach it with a different mentality and are unsuccessful. Never an endgame or exit strategy . If we do this now the UK will become so dangerous it is like a call to arms for radical anti UK young people

Nelly I agree with you. I honestly do not have any other opinion than I hope nothing happens and we do not get involved. Purely because my DH is military and we are based very close to the countries in question, meaning he is currently on very short notice to deploy if needed.
Probably very selfish of me to not want to even consider a different opinion but when it's the ones you love at risk I think its reasonable.

He spoke, well shouted, a lot about the history of Iraq. Pointed out that IS are about 20000 people scattered in an area the size of Britain and they have no bases to bomb, said they are not an army but a group of terrorists. He ran out of time to explain his solution but it was to do lots of strengthening and getting weapons in there.

There is no answer but inaction is also no solution.

I am afraid to say but ISIS are evil motherfuckers and I cannot envisage anything other than brute force will stop them

I hate to type this but they are not rational, and the only way to stop them is to have the coppmbined military forces of the UN nations attach them

I cant beleive I typed this

Do you also think that we should have left the rest of Europe to fight it out with Hitler on their own, OP?

And how do you think you would approach this issue if your child had been beheaded?

These people are helpless. In comparison to many other countries, we have a ridiculous amount of power. There is a moral obligation to do what we can to stop massacres, whatever our mistakes may have been. All interventions come at cost, sadly.

Is there a reason that there are so few debating it in the commons? Have the rest of the mps made up their minds?

I think the vote is a formality really esp if the are ready to commence tonight?

What happened if we hasn't taken action against Hitler?

At a certain point, you have to say that enough is enough. And for me, burying people alive and beheading children is well beyond that point.

And even if you don't care about those people, these terrorists will destabilise an entire region.

im torn on this one i really dont want to go in i personally think we have made it worse in the past im not hopeful we can help in the future

what's aggravating me at the moment is two things

1, the prime minister said we would not intervene when women ad children were first being killed now we are

2, the press are blaming "the british public" for us going in because apparently a poll told them so

i didn't vote for war STOP BLAMING ME! my husband is out fortunately but friends children have not long go in they will be going to war a friend of my daughters (someone older who she acted with) he is joining up soon could i see his name on the news in a few years time? could people my husband knows be among the lists of the dead its all so morbid so personal and so close to home

bombs only cure life unfortunately