to think a 'property investor' isn't a profession

[sarahighseas]

I keep coming across people that call thenseleves a professional property developer.

I don't think its a profession. Most have just bought somewhere, when it increases re mortgage it and buy another. They have just been lucky with a rising market and been able to gamble with other people's money and be bailed out when it goes wrong.

A profession to me is something that needs skills / qualifications. Where as this is just about being lucky and the government supporting stupidly high prices.

Someone has to manage all the properties.

What about if someone buys somewhere which needs lots of work and does lots themselves and project manages the rest, then they market t for rental or sale and if letting they manage it? I would say all of these things require a level of skill which would be considered a profession if you were doing it for someone elses property (ie builder, site manager, estate agent, letting agent etc).

My dh is a property investor! He works for someone with a very large pot (millions). It is definitely a profession, requires a lot of skill and knowledge and comes under the surveying umbrella.

Then I think you don't really understand the notion of property managmement then.

We are currently gutting and doing our own house (the one we live in and pay a mortgage one) and the amount of work that goes into managing the build, the tradesmen, deliveries etc... is actually a lot. You do that for two or more properties and it's pretty time consuming.

It's not a profession in the strict sense of the word (i.e. requires professional qualifications and membership of a professional body from which you can be struck off for improper behaviour) - like doctors, lawyers, architects etc.

But I think what most people mean when they use this, is that the person is drawing their main income from being a property investor - i.e. from buying, renovating, managing, and selling properties. That does take work and skills.

^

This

I don't think it's a Profession in the technical sense (aren't there only about ten recognised Professions in the UK?), but I do think it's a profession in the skills/expertise sense.

I say that as someone who does a job that is almost universally recognised as a profession, but isn't (yet...) a Profession.

Plus, if you consider the lay usage of "professional" where money is being made, as opposed to "amateur" where you do it for the love of it, then of course you can be a professional property developer.

Furthermore, you have to consider that the word is also being used to indicate a full-time job, as opposed to a part-time sideline, so again, is perfectly reasonable a description.

That one always used to strike me on old censuses, which described it as "property owner" or "proprietor of houses".

So an honest admission that the person was living off rents without the pretence of doing anything.

(Although in the instances I've been looking at, they were often the widows and unmarried daughters of the person who actually did build the houses and develop the new city. So an even further cry from the "snap up existing property and expect it to be a cash cow" practices of some BTLers.)

Of course some modern property developers actually will be, well, developing property - making homes available that weren't before. In which case it seems like a fair job description.

Also, your description is that of a property speculator, not a property developer (which requires some kind of development input into the property in question, rebuilding, extending, redecorating, landscaping etc).

laughs long at the thought of doing nothing and just living off the rents

So what would be the career of two parents at DD's school who have a portfolio of over 100 properties buy them do them up, rent for about 10 years, do up agin and sell.
To support their lifestyle the must earn around £200K per year. No other work.

OK I think I'm annoyed at amature property speculators calling themselves property developers. I'm particularly annoyed at a few people i know in London who have made millions mainly due to luck, but think they are some kind of genius.

"Profession-a paid occupation, particularly one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification."
"Profession-a vocation founded upon specialised educational training"

Depends on how you interpret profession/professional. People talk of being professional cleaners, professional de-clutterers, professional songwriters, professional cake makers..... The term is used so loosely these days, just to mean "I make money from what I do" rather than it being a hobby. I wonder if this has stemmed from sports situations where sportsmen and women are "professional" once they are paid and this has spread to being used in any role. Everyone understands when someone says they are a professional xxxxx but technically I think it is a misuse of the term.

It's not really about luck. It's knowing the market in your area, what's selling easily, what requires doing to the property and to whom you are likely to sell. You need to have a good network of tradespeople, be able to plan well, manage the schedule to ensure you're coming in on time and budget etc.
A good developer will make money regardless of a rising market, that's just the icing on top of the cake.

I'm particularly annoyed at a few people i know in London who have made millions mainly due to luck, but think they are some kind of genius.

Replace the word 'annoyed' with 'jealous' and we might be at the crux of the matter

Replace the word 'annoyed' with 'jealous' and we might be at the crux of the matter

YY. And isn't it you, OP, who has a friend with a tiny flat that is annoyingly making tens of thousand for her in increased value?

What's your own situation with housing? Do you feel you're missing out on something?

My dh is a chartered surveyor, so does have a professional qualification. Admittedly he works on a much bigger scale than you describe, but it is a huge undertaking to buy, sell and manage property and you need an understanding of taxation, law, economics, politics, in order to do it well.

YABU - i work for a property investment company in UK we make a profit of several millions being property investors.

Most of the staff are surveyors by profession.

Yep, if someone who does no work on the property and just benefits from the rising tide is claiming to be in the same job as those on this thread working hard to bring properties on or to manage large numbers of lettings, then they're kidding themselves.

There's plenty of work that can be done on with property. Just owning it isn't the same.

Usually there is more than 'luck' involved in being able to manage a successful property portfolio including researching the markets, negotiating good purchase prices and interest rates, etc; managing the property so it retains and adds to its value; vetting tenants, etc.

Really, like most careers where outsiders think it is down to 'luck', it actually does involve skill and hard work which is why there are so many people who own properties but don't class themselves as property developers.