WWYD -lying to medical insurance.

[Sleepswithbutterflies]

Well. Not exactly lying, more exaggerating. Please stick with me, it's quite involved.

So we have ds conceived easily and naturally but have been TTC dc2 for 2 years, our issue is extreme male factor (hardly any sperm usual shape).

We've had two failed rounds of icsi Ivf where we got to transfer but have never had any embryos survive to blastocyst. However both times they gave us about a 35% chance of success.

Both failed and at my follow up appointment the consultant advised me to have a laparoscopy to see if the c section I had with ds has caused endometriosis. I did have some problems following my c section (retained product, sorry tmi) and the consultant said that scar tissue may be stopping embryos from implanting. I personally think that the embryos have just stopped developing since none of the ones we didn't transfer did brilliantly but he's the expert I guess.

Anyway a laparoscopy costs £4k privately. The only symptom I have of endo is extremely painful ovulation which I have been to the gp for previously even when we weren't TTC. It is much much worse since having ds and sometimes makes me cry with pain and lasts for several days. Other months not so bad but definitely painful every month. The gp basically said that the nhs would just give me progesterone treatment to stop me ovulating and hence stop the pain but that is no good when TTC. The nhs won't help me with anything fertility wise because we already have one child. Fair enough.

We have private medical insurance which we've paid for a long time but they won't pay out understandably for fertility issues or I think for problems caused by childbirth, which possibly mine is. I have to be honest and say I probably wouldn't go for a laparoscopy if we weren't TTC and I wasn't worried about scar tissue affecting implantation, we will never get pregnant naturally because dh's sperm is so poor.

The private consultant has advised me to tell the gp that Im suffering painful periods, bleeding between periods, painful sex and pain on ovulation. It just doesn't sit well with me and I'm a crap liar. The only bit that's true is the painfuld ovulation. He said to ask the gp to refer back to him and as long as the insurance don't get wind of fertility issues it'll be ok. I've spoken to the insurance and told them that we've had fertility treatment for male factor infertility and they said that was ok, it wouldn't affect this claim. But it still feels wrong.

Otoh god I want a baby and we've already spent £10k on treatment and don't really want to spend another £4k on something that may or may not help. The sensible thing would just be to except I've got one child and live with it but it's so hard. I'm only 31. I don't want to feel sad about this for the rest of my life.

WWYD?

I think you need to unpick a few issues here, starting with this whole "I'm 31and it seems so unfair". Well, yes, and despite it all being so unfair you still got one child. There are plenty of infertile couples who would say that result is pretty unfair. But it also seems unfair to your current, healthy, wonderful child that your money and focus is all about trying to have a second one, as though s/he's not enough. Make sure they don't feel that way.

But also, your gut doesn't tell you that this Dx is what's stopping your conception. Your gut says that what's been the problem all along is still the problem and now you're considering not just surgery, with the risks that entails, but fraud to solve something that you don't think is actually the problem. How far down this path are you going to go? You don't seem to have this kind of cash just laying around (who does, really?) but you're thinking of another £14k because it seems unfair? Stop the madness, find a support group, sort yourself out, and go be happy with what you've got.

OP I hope you make the right decision for you.
FWIW I would have no qualms about doing as your consultant has suggested. Fraud schmaud.

Good luck

Yep Im totally aware I should be grateful and that life isn't fair. I do understand that. But in general I've had a load of health related not fair things happen and there's only so much one person can take.

I'm immensely thankful for ds but I do feel I've let him down badly.

Wow, "not a proper family", how bloody offensive. So my parents and I weren't a "proper family"? Are my son and I not a "proper family"? I think all my sympathy for you has evaporated after that. Dear god, I hope you never let your son hear that you don't think he's good enough and not a "proper family".

If I can ask, are your periods still normal? ie not unusually light or anything? Because my consultant said I had suspected Asherman's, but my periods were the exact same as normal, so I was never convinced. Asherman's should also be investigated even if not affecting fertility.

It could be some adhesions or scar tissue that cause the pain I suppose - so hard to know, isn't it?

Anyone I know this is awful and dark and hideous for you so I shan't go on too much (I know it's annoying, I still feel like a 'bitter infertile' and suspect I always will) but at the risk of sounding patronising, 31 does still offer you a lot of time and possiblities. I'm 34 and was also beginning to panic, but much better to be looking into solutions now than when you're 38. Can you imagine?! I started my ttc journey at 26 - if I'd left it a few years later I'm not sure I'd have any children.

It's what people have said to me. Including my inlaws.

I'm an only child too for what it's worth.

Midnite OP is probably thinking that in her darkest moments, not all the time. A two or three-person family is perfectly fine/normal/fab etc but when you are struggling and see fours or more everywhere you go, it's natural to doubt yourself I think.

Ok not exactly not a proper family...a less important family maybe? I don't know.
My mil said that you're just a couple with a child until you have more than one and I guess because it's kind of a sensitive issue it's stuck with me.

I don't feel it's a proper family for ds. He'd love a sibling. I was never bothered but he is. There aren't even any children in our immediate family, no little cousins.

"Never be a proper family. Just a couple with a kid" ???????
Firstly I bet you're ds/dd would love to be referred to as that!
You are a proper family. You have got a child. Yes it must be dreadful to have gone through this but you are asking people's advice on fraud and that's what it is.
You are being "snippy" yourself saying that it's not fair how people get pregnant really easily (without committing fraud) when you have already got a child. How must it sound to people out there who can't have a child full stop?
Life isn't fair, things don't pan out theway we want . But don't think you deserve this more than anyone else so you can justify fraud.

We all have those 'darkest moments' but most people also have a filter between their brain and what they actually express out loud. Most would realise just how offensive that sort of comment is to people who may not have a mum, dad and two kids family set up.

Sorry you are struggling to conceive, it's not fair that some people have to go through so much to conceive. Personally, in your position I don't think I would have any qualms about doing as your consultant suggested, it would be difficult to prove you weren't suffering from those symptoms. However if you are going to be a bag of nerves through the whole process then maybe it's counterproductive. Good luck I hope you make the right decision for you and that you do have your longed for DC.

Your comment was very insulting op to all those who are 'just a couple with a kid'. Be grateful that you've had one which many people can't.
Best to sort out this mentality before thinking of bringing another child into this.

I'm shocked at how nasty people are being to you. I empathise. I know how hard infertility is.

I would not be agonising over this as you are. You have been advised by your consultant and I would follow his advice.

Other posters can flame (& bully) all they like.

Its amazing how these fellow posters think it is fine to be hostile and nasty to poor sleepswithbutterflies but worry so much about a Medical insurance company.

Op was advised to do this by her consultant ffs.

Go for it Op. Your consultant wouldn't have compromised his ethics if he didn't think you needed this procedure.

Good luck xx

Agree. OP is clearly upset and it's hard to be rational or sensitive when emotional.

Thinking that if its to do with retained products - if it has occurrred after previous CS then NHS should pay.

I think they should pay for anything like that.
Actual ivf no but the other stuff yes.
(I had my tube swell up , suspected hydro during last ivf and because i have 1 child i would have to pay for clipping or whatever, which i definitely think should be nhs, as if i wanted to stop having babies they would pay!! Or if i was on baby 11 CS they would pay for that)
If not NHS can freely screw up our systems and we have to pay to put them right.

It seems unlikely to be this. More likely the sperm. If it was day 2/3 transfer i would next time go for day 5 as if it doesnt get that far...
But then we have pcos and sperm issues.

If you are in pain that is NOT normal that should be checked no matter what.

You could have adhesions from the CS to maybe ovary. Did you get more eggs on 1 side, was stimming painful?

The expert knows you could have endo (anyone could it can have no symptoms)

OP I realise this must be very difficult, and it is even more confusing when your consultant, whose views you are pre-conditioned to trust and respect, advises doing something which you feel is off.

However that shouldn't prevent you from clearly recognising that it would not be right to do this. To the PP who said "fraud, shmaud" - do you also say "theft shmeft"? Because that is what this would be. In addition, if you were to do it and the insurance company got wind of it, I suspect that would cast significant doubt upon your eligibility for medical insurance in the future and possibly (by association) others in your family including your child(ren).

I'm sorry you feel bereft of a second child - your comment about not being a proper family probably wasn't the best way to express this, although IMO other posters have been pretty harsh in their reaction to that comment. However, I think you really must try to put aside comments from other people (MIL etc) on this subject - it just creates a cloud of guilt and confusion when you are trying to make difficult and emotional decisions.

I didn't mean to come across as snippy, I just felt a little defensive when I came to see what other's opinions were as I felt a little uncomfortable with the consultant's suggestion myself. I felt like people were saying I was some sort of terrible person for even contemplating it when the only reason I was contemplating it is was because a member of the medical profession had suggested it.

I appreciate I don't 'deserve' a child more than the next person but I don't deserve one any less either surely?
I will tell my gp the truth and see what the insurance say. I may push for further nhs investigations if the private medical people say no. I was offered a hsg a while back but we didn't have it because we were having ivf which bypasses the tubes anyway.
I asked my consultant if it was possible the ovulation pain was because the ovaries had become adhered to something else and he said yes.

Oh - and naty1 I don't agree with you at all. The consultant hasn't compromised his ethics I don't think - he is not suggesting any inappropriate or unnecessary medical treatment (which would be unethical). He is suggesting an immoral and unlawful course of action to the OP which is different. You seem to be suggesting that the OP would be putting her health in danger if she doesn't do this, which is not the case AFAIK - she may be compromising future chances of conceiving but that is different.

Plus, if it is so medically important, then I'm afraid the OP should pay for it, not commit an act of dishonesty.

Having had fertility issues myself, In your position I would exaggerate my symptoms to your GP to get referred for NHS treatment (I hope I've understood this right!).

Having had my health insurance claim paid out earlier this year for cancer, I would not be lying / manipulating a health insurance policy. You never know when you may need it (although obviously fingers crossed you won't!) so don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Sounds like you are very emotional & confused. TTC is difficult without complications, I feel for you. Be kinder to yourself. I too want a second child but at same time know how blessed I am to have one, as I'm sure you do too.

It is true to say it has stolen every moment of joy from the last two years.

Really? That seems a bit harsh on your husband and son.

I don't think it's a question of whether you or anyone else 'deserves' a child. I think at 31 if you can't conceive then there is a health issue and that should be investigated and treated on the NHS. I think those struggling with fertility get a raw deal generally.

I know. It has though. I just feel like I'm waiting all the time. Every happy moment is tarnished. Every time I have to watch ds playing on his own. Yes we have lots of play dates etc but it's not the same is it? When we go on holiday he's stuck with us. Yes when he's older we might take a friend but at 5 his friends are too young to go away with other people.

I don't know if the nhs might pay for the investigations. We did initially get referred through the nhs two years ago and the consultant was really dismissive and said 'you've got pregnant once and you will again.'

sounds like you have some relatives you need to lose. Since when was one child not 'a proper family'?

this is all irrelevant though. You are in pain, so try to get that sorted. And you are bigger than committing fraud, so don't do that.

oh, and playdates etc are fine, and I bet at the moment he is delighted to be 'stuck' with you.

what we want and what we can have are not all the same. You have a child, he will probably at some time say 'can I have a brother/sister?' but if you provided one at some time he would say 'take it back, I hate it'. Because that's what kids say, and they don't mean it.

he's happy by the sound of it. Perhaps a leaf out of his book.