To think that a Yes vote means that England and Wales will be condemned to Tory Rule forever more..?

[Scarletohello]

Am starting to feel a bit worried as Scotland seems much more left wing than England. So if they vote Yes, are the rest of us going to be forced to live under Tory ( or a Tory/UKIP Government) forever more..?

If so, I'm bloody moving to Scotland!

Labour holds 2/3 of Scotland's seats. They will lose heavily.

Try living in NI. I may as well eat my vote, I'd get more out of it!

Yep, I do fear he will end up running the country.

I like Boris but he will never get supported by the Tory establishment, he's not conventional enough, too much of a wild card. My unsubstantiated view, but i think he is to progressive for the Tory mainstream.

Daughter, I bloody hope so.

Having said that, Thatcher was also a bit of a wildcard and they fell for her hook line and sinker.

I was feeling mildly hopeful until you said that.

For those that remember, Thatcher was elected leader of the Tories as part of an "Anyone but Heath" campaign.

Very similar to the way we got Major as part of an "Anyone but Heseltine" campaign.

That's true; I hadn't thought about that. I don't think there's a Heath or Heseltine figure lurking in the Tory party at the mo, is there? [hopeful again]

I also get pissed off with this constant 'it's all London and the SE's fault and you're all Tories' attitude. I'm from London and now live just outside (because I couldn't afford to buy in my home town) and have never voted Tory in my life. I get nothing out of Westminster except a train line about to be carved through the back garden.

Looking at the stats yesterday, a third of people in the UK live in the SE (over 40% of England's population) and 8.3million people live in London. For all those wanting to cut off the South East, that's quite a lot people and revenue you want to rid yourselves of.

Yes it would seem so. But they would probably alter a lot of the boundaries if there was a Yes vote. I think the whole lot of them will be totally discredited if there was a Yes vote. Which is why they are campaigning so passionately against it. Nothing to do with Scotland. It's themselves they're worried about.

It would hopefully mean labour would work harder instead of offering a slightly watered down version of the Tories.

Or you vote for a different party and thanks to our voting system still get a Tory MP. Democracy? Not really

You might disagree with our first past the post system, but saying that voting for one party and not getting that person to represent you isn't democracy is hugely offensive to those fighting for democracy in countries which don't have it.

The reason that parties with a minority of the vote get into power is:

a - we were asked about proportional representation and voted against
b - apathy, many people who moan about the government (whomever they are) didn't actually vote last general election turnout was 65%. Ironically the turnout for the AV referendum was only 42%.

As it happens if the last general election had been held on an alternative vote system Labour would probably only have got 4 more seats (although it isn't an exact science) LibDems would have picked up more but still not even close enough to form a govt and Tories would still have been the largest party in parliament. SO most likely we would have ended up with exactly the same coalition govt albeit perhaps with Lib Dems having more power within the coalition.

If we want to avoid Tory governments in the future, Labour needs to come up with a manifesto that appeals to more people, and get those people out to vote.

Boris is (in so many ways) an exception to the rule. It's like people know he's a Tory toff but the buffoon act blurs their critical appraisal of him as a politician. On the plus side, if Londoners wanted a memorable mayor irrespective of politics then he certainly has fulfilled that brief!

Bizarrely, I think the whole UKIP thing has comparatively little to do with England per se. Right wing/nationalist parties are in the ascendant in so many formerly left-leaning European countries (France, Sweden) as well as some countries where perhaps it isn't as much of a surprise (Austria, Poland). In each of these countries, a far right party is the third largest party (at least) in terms of share of vote. This suggests there is an increasing problem/change in attitudes right across Europe and frankly makes me quite uncomfortable.

i do hope people who say we will end up with tory or UKIP are wrong.
god help the vulnerable disabled people

^i do hope people who say we will end up with tory or UKIP are wrong.
god help the vulnerable disabled people^

AktionT4

Boris ironically gave the bankers more of a bashing than Ken Livingstone ever did. He lay down at their feet as it meant expanding his London Empire.

And he was more proactive about the environment, also he despises the empty properties problem. He is a bit of a lefty when making decisions although I would say a Tory in the blood.

Interesting I had not thought of this.

Well the best thing to do in this instance would be to campaign for a removal of the first past the post system. For England the removal of Scotland from Westminster will improve democratic representation from the current situation.

Well the best thing to do in this instance would be to campaign for a removal of the first past the post system

Been there done that, no-one is going to revisit this for a while, particularly given the public apathy shown at the time. It was an expensive waste of time as it turned out.

"YABU. There have only been a handful of occasions when the Scottish vote has been decisive in swinging it for Labour when it would've been Tory otherwise."

Whilst it wouldn't make as dramatic a swing as some people make out, without Scotland it would have changed a number of elections:

• 2010 would be overall conservative majority
• October 1974 would have been hung
• 1964 would change from Labour win to Conservative (just)

The conservatives didn't always used to do so badly in Scotland though. So it would make more of a difference now than previously.

The above all assumes that people would have voted the same way if the UK didn't include Scotland which is clearly impossible to say.

Losing four elections is losing 16 years of power - quite a lot actually.

I'm worried that it will but I am also a little bit hopeful that a yes vote might foster a resurgence in the Labour party - I mean move back to more liberal ideals not the fake-tory party that Labour seems to have become. I also think that UKIP will do more harm than good to the Tories - they take away votes from the more right-wing Tory supporters opening up Parliament for more Labour/Lib Dem voters.

Personally I wish Paddy Ashdown would come back and save what's left of the UK.

After all the chat of Murdoch will he, won't he endorse Yes, I notice the Scottish Sun have a cheeky front page on today's issue. A picture of Prince Harry and his on/off girlfriend with the headline 'Better Together'.