TO THINK THAT INSTEAD OF SETTING BY ABILITY...

[icymaiden]

.. schools should set by behaviour.At least in the first instance so that all the kids who can't or won't behave , can be in a class together, so that everyone else can achieve their best.Once you have separated that lot out, then the remainder could still be set by ability

I actually think YANBU op.

At my DCs schools the desks are in 2s, all facing the front and they work in silence mostly, especially when the teacher is talking.

That must make class debate pretty difficult

Icy, lots of people have given you lots of valid reasons, but you don't seem to understand them.

If you had any idea at all what you were talking about, then you might also understand that it is not the same children all the time who are distruptive. As others have said, family breakdown, bereavement, moving house, illness, sudden changes to the school day, friendship issues etc etc etc can all trigger children to have a bad day or even a bad few months.

All children need to be supported and encouraged.

Very few children are good all day every day. Those very few who are need to develop the skills to live with distractions. They will not be living in a bubble their entire lives. Part of doing well in school is learning how to work in a group and to cope with positive and negative influences in the classroom.

It isn't a problem to me.
i didn't think we were restricted to debating only issues which affect us personally.
Why do you think it is goady to have an interest and an opinion on education generally.

I used to get lumped with a particular boy in my form class when we had home ecomonics, as the teacher knew he was a bit scared of me, and that I would not hold with any bad behaviour! He messed around in all classes, except that one!

I think peer pressure can encourage bad behavers to perform better...

My DS is one of those ones who can't behave. However, I can reassure you that, despite him being intellectually gifted, his SN have massively impacted on his learning so he's not in the top sets for anything.

HTH

I largely agree with the OP. But then again I feel 'inclusion' to be one of the worst ideas of the twenty-first century.

I don't think it has much to do with the 'rights' of the one or two children.

It has to do with the responsibility of schools (and maybe society in general) to try to help them to get some level of education in spite of whatever difficulties they happen to have.

There isn't a magic bullet for getting all children to behave. 'Getting rid' of the disruptive ones is an excellent way of maintaining privilege. But it fails to actually deal with the problem of children who have more complex needs.

Congratulations on having children who got into a school that will make sure they don't have to face the rest of the world. Unfortunately, if these children just get 'dumped' all the time, they are going to be unemployed and unemployable, rather than being helped to take a full part in society.

But hey, your children will be high achievers because you've raised them so well, so why worry!

I could see more sense in setting by learning style, which would probably also improve behaviour. So the ones who like to sit quietly and work on their own could be together, the visual ones, the ones who like to work as part of a group, the kinaesthetic ones who work better while handling materials and the fidgety ones who can't sit still could all be in their own groups.

Grouping by behaviour wouldn't be great if you only group by 'good' and 'bad' behaviour because the root causes of bad behaviour vary so widely.

You must have spent a huge amount of time in a classroom environment to have come up with this gem, OP.

What a weird thread, parents arguing the right of their child to disrupt the class and learning of others.
Not really surprising they are dusruptive then is it?
Assuming its the childs choice to misbehave, then its woukd be their choice to stop and move 'up'.
Too intelligent making them bored is such a poor excuse.
School is boring for most students. A little respect for other students and teacher woukd go a long way

As always there is a total misconception that the children are choosing to be disruptive whereas for many it is totally beyond their control.

Doesn't matter how many rewards or sanctions you put in for ds2 if he gets too anxious then his "fight and flee" response kicks in and there are explosions. The better tactic by far is to lower his anxiety.

And actually one of the most successful tools that his good teachers used was to give him challenging work as keeping his brain occupied stops him getting anxious.

Assuming its the childs choice to misbehave

Is it though? Maybe in some cases, but even then you have to look at what is happening in a child's life that 'bad' attention from a teacher is better than no attention at all, that 'being the class clown' is a better prospect than sitting quietly.

And what if, even if they were behaving themselves, they would still be in the lowest class, so being moved up is not a realistic outcome. What is the point of behaving if you fear that you are never going to be one of the ones who can do it? You might as well not try. You can 'not try' quietly, or you can 'not try' loudly and dramatically and at least get attention that way, and console yourself with being a rebel if you can't be a swot.

ODFOD.

I am in two minds. Obviously you can't have different "behaviour" classes. But neither can you allow a minority of disruptive kids to spoil it for the rest - and also create a culture where kids are mocked for actually enjoying school and being enthusiastic. IME it tends to be the good kids that get dragged down by the others and not the other way round if schools are lax on discipline. If you are at least above average and quiet you get left to your own devices and bright, able, keen kids get bored and demotivated.

And what if, even if they were behaving themselves, they would still be in the lowest class, so being moved up is not a realistic outcome. What is the point of behaving if you fear that you are never going to be one of the ones who can do it? You might as well not try. You can 'not try' quietly, or you can 'not try' loudly and dramatically and at least get attention that way, and console yourself with being a rebel if you can't be a swot.

A lot of the lads causing disruption in class at my school were the ones who went on to achieve good GCSEs.

'You must have spent a huge amount of time in a classroom environment to have come up with this gem, OP. hmm'

yes. Every day from 4 to 18 years of age.

Oh haha.

I clearly meant as an adult. Unless, of course, you aren't one yet.

Teachers (every single one in DD's primary so far) have got to come up with a better solution than sitting the really disruptive DCs next to the quiet, conscientious ones.

"Every day from 4 to 18 yeasts of age". Don't be so obtuse and supercilious. Being a child once upon a time does not qualify you suggest a policy that will exclude children, some who may have special needs / awful home lives / horrific experiences. I find this suggestion repugnant.

Why don't we make sure they sit at the back of the bus and drink from different water fountains too? For we could send them to camps to help with their concentration.

OP can you define what you mean by badly behaved?
Are you talking about children being disruptive because of severe behaviour problems? The ones that have some SN of some sort?
Hie do you think a teacher will cope with a class of 28 'disruptive' children? Do r if which are just badly behaved and aggressive, the ones who in a meltdown because of overstimulation, the ones who end up cyibg inconsolably because another child said do ething very hurtful about their mum who has just died.
How do you think that one single teacher will be able to meet the needs of a those children all in one go?
I can see how removing the 1or 2 disruptive ones in a class would help the other 28. But them how would that help these one or two? Are they not allowed an education then? Because let's be real. The teacher would only do done crowd control all day and they wouldn't learn anything at all.

I agree to a certain extent OP. My DS was placed on a table of 4 for Science. He was in one of the bottom sets and strived to move up a set. He and another boy on his table asked to move tables as they were being constantly distracted by the two other boys on their table, fidgeting, dropping pencils, shouting out, laughing, punching each other and doing absolutely no work whatsoever.

The teacher spent a considerable time during the lesson to sort these two boys out. He tried separating them - which then caused disruption on two tables, sending one or other to the Headteacher, kept them behind at lunchtime to catch up on the work they hadn't done during the lesson.

The outcome was one of the boys parents barged into school and punched the teacher "For singling my son out and making him feel simple in front of his mates".

It is little wonder that some children choose to behave in the way they do when their parents defend their actions and show them how to be aggressive!

It is so easy for people to say "Teachers should learn to control their class". Good manners and a willingness to learn should come from home.

But Gabby, how would you have felt if every disruptive child (regardless of their ability) had been sent to your ds's group? Wouldn't that have been even more disruptive?

Don't be so obtuse and supercilious. Being a child once upon a time does not qualify you suggest a policy

I think actually experience of a service user is the perfect qualification.Much more valid than the experience of the service provider Businesses ignore customer feedback at their peril!!

What the OP should mean by badly behaved is entitled, rude, selfish arrogant behaviours. I strongly suspect she is unable to to see her own abominably adult behaviours though.