TO THINK THAT INSTEAD OF SETTING BY ABILITY...

[icymaiden]

.. schools should set by behaviour.At least in the first instance so that all the kids who can't or won't behave , can be in a class together, so that everyone else can achieve their best.Once you have separated that lot out, then the remainder could still be set by ability

icemaiden - how would you police this fairly though (and don't forget you are potentially writing off someone's future here)? One of my son's got put down a set because he was being distruptive. What the teacher didn't appreciate was that he was being annoyed by the girl who was sitting next to him who kept talking and playing with her phone. he kept asking her to stop as he was getting distracted all the time - yet he was the one put down for not paying attention.

i agree that disruptive pupils are a problem, espec with some teachers who can't handle them. don't think this is correct solution though

A good school will have measures in place to deal with behavioural issues.

Perhaps your little darling isnt at a good school? Oh dear.

Is the OP planning a new career modelling flameproof clothing?

No one said anything about being too bright to behave, icy. You are being goady.

In your wonderful system, where do you put the kids who have SN, but are intelligent? Do you write them off, too? Are they "special snowflakes"?

Tychosnose If they don't like the 'naughty' class, maybe that will be an incentive to them to behave better and get moved out.

velowoman that is a good argument for mixed ability teaching.

If they don't like the 'naughty' class, maybe that will be an incentive to them to behave better and get moved out.

Or the ones who are already struggling with life and talking about wanting to die might make it happen.

Perhaps icy but all the research shows otherwise

Could of been worded so much better, I am one of those who either do well well or not so good. So was in varying sets at secondary even though many years ago it does not seem to have changed. No it should not be streamed on behaviour but better teaching and resources should be in place so that no one in the bottom sets are wrote off. The top teachers should not be cherry picked for the top set. There seems to be more movement between the top and middle sets with the bottom staying stationary. If your child is being overly disrupted then the school needs to do more to help all children involved. This is more about the school, the LEA, and the governments with their crap budgets, than individual children.

ouryve insanity scratching wrote just a few posts up 'My ds was disruptive because he was bored rigid' what is that if not 'too bright to behave'

There is no reason why the ' naughty' class would be more or less academic than the 'good' classes is there?

Now you're just being even more goady. You have been given plenty if examples from DawnDonna and many others as to how you can't just lump all 'imperfect' students into one type of set but you seem to refuse to see the difference.
My DS is working like a dog to get out of the lower sets he found himself in due to bad behaviour last year - he's extremely lucky to be at a school that help and encourage all students to believe that they can achieve good things, movement between sets is fairly fluid and thank God the lower sets are given just as much encouragement as the others to do their best. He is in no doubt he will get there. It would seem that not all schools are like this - especially ones that treat the bottom sets like a zoo..

icemaiden - clearly the naughty class is going to quickly become less academic - assuming they aren't already - because the teacher won't be able to teach them adequately because they will be concentrating on trying to maintain piece instead

'A good school will have measures in place to deal with behavioural issues.

Perhaps your little darling isnt at a good school? Oh dear'

they are at a grammar school which gets rid of the disruptive ones.

My 'little snowflake' has SEN and gained level 6's in her sats and tested in the top 5% for her IQ

She has anxiety that causes her to break down and she can be disruptive

So DFO

Also if your sister refers to her classes as 'a zoo' she should consider a change of job

'So DFO'

please don't swear.It is the last resort of those who have no valid argument.

Ds is quite happy to be bored a few hours a week as he is at uni but six hours a day for five years was more than his tolerance could take tbh. He was far less disruptive for the teachers who had good classroom management though and the few that recognised that he knew already what they were teaching and allowed him to do his own thing. I still say that if disruption is a problem it's more down to the teachers and the school rather than the pupils tbh.

Nobody has come up with a valid reason as the why the rights of say 1 or 2 pupils are allowed to negatively impact on the education of 28 others.

i do volunteering at schools on a regular basis. this has given me a lot of respect for teachers, as handling disruptive teenagers is a nightmare (and i've had 3 teenagers so am not an espec soft touch).

one thing i have noticed is that you often get a ringleader who then encourages a few of the others to play up. So because a child was 'led astray' they would end up in the naughty set and written off?

My Dsis teaches bottom set at one of the roughest schools in the country.She says it is heartbreaking for the 3 or 4 who want to learn, being contained in what is essentially a zoo.

Then your Dsis needs to learn how to control her class, surely?

I'd be reporting her to the Head if my child was one of the 3 or 4 in her class that wanted to learn.

WHY HAVE YOU SHOUTED YOUR THREAD TITLE? IS IT BECAUSE YOU THINK WE ARE DEAF OR BECAUSE YOU THINK WE HAVE POOR BEHAVIOUR AND YOU NEED TO GET OUR ATTENTION?

Nobody has come up with a valid reason as the why the rights of say 1 or 2 pupils are allowed to negatively impact on the education of 28 others.

You'd have to ask a teacher why they allow that to happen.

The teachers in my DC's school certainly don't allow it and I live in one of the roughest boroughs in London.

So if yours are at grammar school which get rid of the disruptive ones why is it a problem to you? If your dsis can't manage her classes then that's her problem so why is that a problem to you? Could it be you just wanted an attention seeking goady thread I wonder?

Hmm I don't know on all these Educating Essex/Yorkshire/EastEnd programmes the classroom is distracting
Why oh why do many of the teachers arrange tables so the kids are facing one another and let the chat
At my DCs schools the desks are in 2s, all facing the front and they work in silence mostly, especially when the teacher is talking.

"There is no reason why the ' naughty' class would be more or less academic than the 'good' classes is there?"

Um, how would that work?

The 'naughty' class will start out with children who have already missed out on education in their earlier years because of their difficulties in accessing the curriculum (whatever the reasons for that).

It will have to start from a lower-than-average position.

And it will go at a lower-than-average pace, since disruption makes it difficult to teach at the same pace you can manage in a class where people are paying full attention.

So, I don't think you can argue that the 'naughty' class is somehow going to be academically ok by some magical method which separates out behaviour from achievement.

If the behaviour did not affect achievement, then you wouldn't want them out of the 'nice kids' classes, would you? You'd just smile and say everything was fine.

Maybe it's because some teachers actually believe that all children regardless of attitude or ability can a achieve good things if they are given a chance? Not all schools have both eyes on the league tables, some actually care about the well being of the children they teach..
Just a thought...