To not work over my contracted hours

[ILovePud]

I posted similar in a response to another thread but I was probably going off at a bit of a tangent so I'm starting a new thread as I'm interested in other's opinions. I don't work over the hours I am paid for, I hate the culture of expectation that people work over their hours. I think working longer hours perpetuates the myths that the amount of work expected to be done can be done within the hours allocated for it (by some employers at least) and I think it disadvantages those with caring commitments. I also think working longer hours than I am contracted to do would put those whom I manage under pressure to do the same. I genuinely work as hard as I can when I am in work and think that's enough. If there is a real emergency then I will stay late but I claim the time back. What do others think?

Sorry at least 5 hours per week in addition to my 35 hours per week contract

I am the manager of a charity and work whatever hours I need to do to get the job done and ensure that vulnerable clients are supported as best as possible
However, I do not expect my staff to do same, and in fact tell them off if they are doing too much or building up TOIL, it can be quite stressful and the last thing we all need is for them to be unable to do their job properly due to stress
I take some of mine as TOIL if I can, but mostly feel that the ability to work flexibly and sometimes from home, along with immense job satisfaction is enough most of the time.
Sometimes I still grump though if I have to get up at 4.30 to catch a 5.30 train and get home after 10.30, thankfully this is not usually more than once a month

In theory I agree, and I do think that 'forced' unpaid overtime is wrong.

I'm lucky in that although I do sometimes need to work extra to get things done, it's all paid and I can claim unlimited overtime.

DH has worked in various management positions over the past ten years. Overtime has never been paid for him, and I have moaned many times when he's stayed late or started early 'for nothing'. On some occasions it's meant working 60 hours, 20 of which are not paid.

But...in his case, it has been worth it. He's been promoted a few times and is always picked up for his dedication to the team and store (he's a retail manager). So I do think for some, it can work out well by putting the extra effort in.

I work a lot of extra hours. I like my job. But sometimes it is too many. But it can be genuinely difficult to have standard hours as I'm in a bit of an at the coal face role. I don't want to post identifying things, but I will say that political situation in Ukraine added a fair few hours one week!

I accept it because I feel appreciated - even if it made no difference to redundancy selection, day to day my colleagues (not only managers) appreciate it. It is noticed, and although it is expected, when it's been extreme, my boss will check on me.
I also accept it because I have freedom and trust to finish at 15:30 on Fri to take my daughter to a club.
I do far more hours than I get back like that, but I do get back. So I don't feel they are taking the piss.
Although I do have 39 hours in my contract I'm salaried and consider that I get paid to deliver this job, not by the hour.

It seems from this thread that at least part of the issue is that those of us who don't have an specific number of contracted hours don't really know how much we're meant to work.

My (fulltime) contracted hours are 40 hours face-to-face per year plus however long it takes to prepare everything needed around that (admin, marking, exams, etc.).

I know this will work out to a perfectly normal full time working schedule, but I think not putting a number on the other things leads to this sort of ludicrous situation. Most people will get terribly stressed and beat themselves up about how much work they should be doing. If they'd been told a realistic number of hours, they'd just work that and actually, they'd do find. Instead, they will probably then provide an excellent result and get rewarded, but they will simultaneously raise the bar for everyone coming after them.

I totally agree with you OP. If you're regularly working above your contracted hours then the company or organisation needs to employ extra staff. If they don't, then you're basically working for free to line someone else's pockets.

If you work overtime, you should be paid extra. I can't stand the appalling work / life balance that is expected in this country. No wonder there are so many people suffering from MH problems and stress.

Another NHS person...an average week is the equivalent of an extra day unpaid. Some weeks...let's not go there.

If you're in a job where you can safely (and without dumping upon your colleagues) not do unpaid overtime, then good for you. There's a reason there's so much burn out and stress where I work...

If you regularly have to work over your contracted hours then either a) you are bad at your job and/or timewasting or b) your boss is giving you too much work, and should hire additional staff.

Obviously if you are a brain surgeon you can't walk out of an operation as soon as the clock hits 5pm, but work should be scheduled so that it can be usually completed on time, or more people made available to complete the work if deadlines are critical. At least in the NHS or schools then you can argue they can't hire more staff as the government won't give them enough money, but in the private sector there is absolutely no excuse for a profitable company to expect staff to work extra hours unpaid. Would your employer negotiate a contract with a supplier to buy x number of office chairs, or y amount of vans, for £Z and then demand freebies once the contract was agreed and in place? Probably not and it wouldn't go down well with many suppliers. It's one thing to ask for a one-off favour from an employee or supplier but expecting to not pay for services rendered on a regular basis is exploitation.

Your employer is there to make money for their shareholders, they will get rid of you at the drop of a hat if it suits them. Employment is a business transaction, and employees should treat it as such.

Sorry for the rant but I used to work in an industry where presenteeism was a huge issue, promotions went to the people who stayed late schmoozing the bosses while the people who actually did the hard work but had to pick up their kids on time got sod all.

YANBU. But then I spent a long time working in Switzerland where salaries were high and people stuck to their hours. It was fabulous. Then I worked for a British blue chip. You could have worked 25 hours a day and it wouldn't have been enough... I won't be going back post maternity leave.

It does depend on where you work, but doing more than you need to just perpetuates being overworked - the managers don't need to hire another person as you are doing it. For free.

And I spend so long typing that KirstyJC puts it much better than me!

I used to do tens of hours of unpaid overtime every week when I was younger and being paid

As with most Public Sector workers the idea of working the hours you are paid for seems a ludicrous suggestion.

I haven`t taken a lunch break in years, but balancing the demands of work and family mean I have to leave on time. In my life before children I would always stay late because I thought this was what was expected of me. There is a culture of long hours for no reward as the job is seen more of a public service than a means of paying the bills.

Given there are no rewards, promotions or thanks for all the extra effort I have learnt life is too short to spend it sitting at a desk so senior management can freeze any vacant post and expect others to take up the slack.

You have a right to a life outside work unless it is what you want, and all your effort reaps rewards.

Yanbu if that's the culture of your organisation. Yabu if everyone else is picking up your slack.

I expect a degree of professionalism from people who work for me. That means getting the job done regardless of hours. I am in a high pressure accountancy role and long hours go with the territory some time. Other times I'm quiet (which I don't like as it means you might be viewed badly) but you can leave early, chat at work or go for long business lunches to win more work.

I wonder if those who only do their hours stick religiously to their work taking breaks only as allowed by their employer. Or do you make cups of coffee, chat about stuff, go to the loo lots due to regular coffee breaks? Not to mention the other flexibility you might want in your work life: quickly check your bank account, accept calls from nursery, leave early for a sports day, stay home to let the plumber in, take a days leave suddenly due to sick child, doctors, dentists etc etc etc. The list of flexibility you need is endless. If you're prepared to give and take then its justifiable to work long hours sometimes. I always try to leave my employer owing me time off somehow then I can fit in all the things I need to do in life.

Fair enough if you don't get paid well and it's a culture of only working your contracted hours. IMO these types of jobs don't give you flexibility and don't treat employees with trust to manage their workloads. I can't generalise too much, I imagine there's all sorts of workplaces out there and each one is different in its attitudes to overtime.

The issue of workplace culture is an interesting one, I think in my work place there's a mix of those who work late and those who don't. However I think all of us contribute to the working hours culture rather than standing outside of it. Part of me feels that I shouldn't work late as it would put additional pressure on others to work late and makes the look like they're underperforming if our figures are compared (though in the main I just need to get home to pick my kids up and because I've got a 1001 other things I want and need to do). I feel grateful that some of my colleagues do seem to have a similar outlook to me, it would be very hard to adopt a boundaried approach to working hours in a setting where everyone worked late. Sorry that some of you seem to be working such long hours.

YANBU, but it sucks that commitment is often shown as the amount of extra unpaid hours you have put in.

Stupid English thing, imo.

I think it depends on what you do. I'm contracted to work 40 hours, but the contract includes a clause about "and extra hours as required by the business."

I will work longer if in the middle of fixing a problem (we also have on-call, which is rota-ed.) I have been working longer to spend time on a project I have volunteered for, as it is something I'm interested in, and will be good for my career longer term. But as a general rule, I think it should be avoided. Also, if I sometimes work a bit longer, I can get flexibility for the times when I need to come in a bit late because I've been to the dentist or something, so to a certain extent it's mutually beneficial.

I'm in a department of 40; if each of us did an extra hour a day, that's a whole week's work for one person. We're a support department, and sometimes we do need to work a bit more to fix a problem. But if everyone's doing it regularly, then it's actually covering up the fact that there's more than enough work to support more people (not that we'd get the budget for to take on more.)

Also, I grew up on a farm, and if the weather's with you in summer, you do the work needed to get the harvest in. Cows have to be milked, and sometimes need help calving. Water problems need fixing so livestock don't go thirsty. Gaps in hedges need fixing. You can't just stop because you've done your hours in some cases, not if it's going to cause suffering to animals or people who can't fix it themselves.

I used to get in early and work late, until I realised it was neither appreciated nor rewarded. So now I arrive on time and leave on time. The exception to that is during our busiest time of year, when we all do whatever hours are necessary to get the job done.

Yes, would be nice to stick to normal hours but that's wholly unrealistic these days especially if you are in a competitive industry.

I agree that many contracts these days seem to have the clause 'extra hours as required ...... blah blah blah'.

And the reality is often that there are just no other jobs to go to - certainly where I live, opportunites are very, very rare and unemployment is very high (I know because separately to my paid job I volunteer with unemployed people) - so yes, in theory I could take the matter higher and 'complain' about the expectation to put in longer hours but the answer would be quite bluntly, take it or leave it ............. obviously couched in management speak terms .

Can't write any more, off to work (an hour early ).

Last week I was in the office 12+ hours every day. I am paid well for what I do and working long hours sometimes is part of that. I had conference calls daily with people in different time zoned which could only take place at either end of the day - can't imagine my superiors would have been too impressed if I'd said sorry, can't make the call as it's outside my contracted hours.

Working for free has a name - volunteering.
I just don't gt why so many people volunteer so much of their leisure time to a private company.

Fine if your job is supporting vulnerable people in the public sector. I can understand that.

But volunteering for a private company who are making money from your work? Why?

The flip side was whilst I put the hours in I also got the snide remarks about how lucky I was to get a promotion, or a pay rise and how fortunate I was to earn what I did whilst being criticised for working too many hours at the same time being told "it is alright for some" after a long business lunch. It is very dependant on the job. It is wrong to guilt people into unpaid overtime if their salary done not reflect.

I work in retail - on NMW - no prospect of progression - we turn up, do our job, go home... it is great! Where I live, if you have experience, you can walk into these sorts of retail jobs any day of the week - so the bosses are very aware that the good staff can, and do, just leave.

I love my job and always give what is needed when I'm there - but as the PP said - why "volunteer" for a private company so they can make more money.

I agree with you op. At the moment I work in an environment where you have to be ready to begin at the start of your shift, and due to hot desking and complicated log in systems this means arriving 20 mins early.
You aren't allowed to log off until the moment your shift finishes, and the role is customer facing, so if a customer comes through 1 sec before the end of your shift then you must deal with that customer (we deal with 2 customers at a time, so potentially 2). This adds a total of about 35 mins of unpaid work per shift - nearly 3 hours per week. This is the case for every customer facing employee - I can't even begin to imagine how many hours and pounds that equates to.
No wonder my employer is a gazillionaire.

Although I would definitely feel differently about it if I were working in the environment that I eventually want to work in (outreach support work).
The issue that I have with it at the moment is that my extra work is lining the pockets of an incredibly wealth man, where as in a different role, my extra work could benefit someone in real need of help or support, in which case I would be more than happy to do it.