To think its ok to tell voters that businesses will move south if its a yes?

[Loopylala7]

If these businesses do intend to shift south of the border if its a yes, shouldn't the voters know this is a possible outcome? Why is it considered unfair for this information to be out? Can somebody please explain? Am I being a bit dense?

But Tabula surely when the systems was set up, it was set up expecting that the whole of the UK would be paying their NI in to the government to pay for everybody who needed a pension (as previously said, you pay for the current pensioners rather than your money being saved to pay for you in the future, workers in the future will be paying for you).

If you take out all the scottish workers putting money into the system but still expect scottish pensioners to receive a pension it means that everybody working in England, Wales and N Ireland need to contribute even more to pay for scottish pensions it doesn't sound fair. And that's before even beginning to think about people that are scottish that have worked in the UK outside of scotland for some or all of their life and vice versa - who are they going to claim their pension from?

There's a little bit of leeway in the system I'm sure to cover people that move abroad or here in retirement; there are different arrangements with lots of different countries as to the amount you get - it's different wherever you end up. However the system wasn't ever designed for an entire country to drop out of in a relatively short time frame; that's going to take some huge sorting out and chances are cost everybody involved lots of money to sort out on top of the actual pension payments.

Even things like the software costs - it's not like they can trot down to PC World and buy a copy of Pension software - and they're not going to be able to just copy a version of the pension software currently used as it just wasn't ever designed in that way.

Yes, but people live in all sorts of places after retirement and are still paid a UK pension.

There are still uk citizens though. Scotland will no longer be in the UK.

No pension is guaranteed and goal posts move all the time such as the age when you can retire.

If you die just after you retire or before you retire your beneficiaries don't get your state pension or a rebate on your behalf iyswim.

Presumably the NHS pensions are final salary though?

(Although I have no idea how they sort out state pensions based on NI contributions).

Pensions are paid to those who have accrued entitlement to payout and their nationality is irrelevant.

And anyway individuals in Scotland who want to can remain UK citizens or can take up dual nationality. There is no requirement to relinquish UK nationality.

There are about 880,000 (2012 figs) already drawing their pension in Scotland. Those pensions must still be paid.

One likely mechanism is that bulk will be paid by rUK (a per capita or Barnet split of cost?) probably by annual block grant. Those whose working lives straddle two nations will have UK years of pension paid on those or similar terms, with their new employer paying whatever they accrue in iScotland.

There is a demographic problem for Scotland here. By about 2050 (ie most of a working life ahead) on current predictions (continuing union) the number of pensioners in Scotland will have doubled, increasing bills significantly.

Does anyone know if there are any predictions on whether expected demographic trends would alter on independence?

Does anyone know if there are any predictions on whether expected demographic trends would alter on independence?

I'm guessing that it is to dependable on many factors at the moment tbh such as business moving etc.

Pensions are paid to those who have accrued entitlement to payout and their nationality is irrelevant.

That is true of private and work pensions, but the state pension is funded out of current taxes and NI payments and the goal posts can be moved (e.g. change in retirement age, change in amount). Also you only get the annual increase in the UK pension if you live in certain countries.

My understanding tabulahrasa is that there would in fact be a quite massive potential issue over the disentangling of pension entitlement within the UK as opposed to the paying for them which would be 'only' a balance sheet issue between any sScotland and the the rest of the country. I've had it all explained to me and I'm still wincing.

What about the forces? would say a Scottish regiment instantly get handed over? I just heard Nicola Sturgeon on the news talking about the waste of money spent on weaponry - what would Scotland do to defend itself in the event of any threats?

Sorry, I should have been clearer - public sector pensions are paid from current revenue to all those who have accrued the entitlement. It would need to be an annual block grant.

On the military, no regiments would not just be 'handed over' as that would lead to both British and iScottish forces being horribly unbalanced (though Scotland would of course keep its historic cap badges). Scotland wants to increase the number of military personnel (currenty about 12k based there) to 15k and increase the number of reservists from 2k to 5k.

They will need to specify their desired force structure, and seek transfer of equipment (eg they will want naval patrol vessels for their own waters but have no need for those which project force globally). They will also have to recruit the personnel. There will probably have to be some sort of TUPE style offer to encourage serving personnel to transfer, but no individual can be compelled to transfer. Foreign/dual nationals of friendly countries can already join the British military, so there is no bar to staying for those who want to stay with the Brits.

I imagine she sees no threats, only opportunities.

Yes I'm being sarcastic.

The thing is there is no reason for anybody to agree anything if they don't want to. It all comes down to who feels they have more power and what they think will win them the most votes - see also Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, the EU, current relations with Russia, the Eurovision song contest etc. etc.

Does that mean we could opt out of Eurovision? Thank god for that.

The sad thing is that as it stands, about half the population won't get what they wanted anyway (even if they only had a wooly idea of what 'that' actully looked like).

I am still pissed I didn't get to vote. I won't get into a rant about the criteria of those who did as I don't want to have a stroke. Those who know me now know not to mention 'it' to me now.

The sad thing is that as it stands, about half the population won't get what they wanted anyway (even if they only had a wooly idea of what 'that' actully looked like).

Yes. That is a true sadness.

I don't want my children to have a Scottish passport. I fail to see what use that would be apart from popping to the Costa del Sol or Florid or wherever once in a while. Who knows what countries would do with visas etc with a new Scotland. I have no confidence in the ability of the current lot to deliver a secure foreign office policy that looks after its citizens abroad. It all sounds too Mickley Mouse for words and I am not going to get into a protracted debate about why I can't pass my nationality on because I can't.

Granted a UK passport is not flavour of the month everywhere but equally it is a respected one. I am a fan of collecting dual or triple nationality because you never know and here is a reason why it is so useful.

Will you need a visa to go abroad then, especially if we don't get into the EU club. Bollocks to that. Its hard eniugh trying to spend/change a scottish bloody banknote ('ho ho, yes I did print it myself ha ha').

I think I'd be reluctant to travel anywhere if there's a vote for independence - at least until Scotland has established embassies all around the world. We wouldn't be entitled to use the British ones anymore after all - or would Salmond insist on a using those aswell as the currency? Muppet!

I think it would bollocks up tourism too. I'm not sure if my son would be eligible for a scottish passport or if he'd want one. Same with my nieces and nephews in the states.

But would those crying 'freeeeeh-duuum fur scoatlund' be the type of people who actually travel? Those on tv remind me of the americans you meet in AFN who have never been outside their own state but know that it is the best/biggest in the whole wide world, and assume that everybody agrees.

Will the salmon resign if it doesn't go his way or will he pull that mewling crybaby face and declare 'foul'?

(AFN = A*e F*k Nowhere)

nicename this entire event has me concerned at the state of my arteries!

'That is true of private and work pensions,'

But that's what we were talking about.

About the passport/visa/nationality...if you are currently a UK national, you will always be a UK national and entitled to a UK passport.

My head hurts when I think about how much work it will take for independent Scotland to replicate the services they currently enjoy. And the cost will be astronomical. Imagine the cost of things like a mInt for their new currency, new armed forces, Scottish civil aviation authority, embassies in every country on the planet, tax and revenue authority, border control.

It will take several generations to get thinks back onto a even keel. If that's what the Scots people want they fine but I personally believe it's insane. I wouldn't want my children to face that sort of uncertainty.
I'm also certain that the only people with anything to gain are those of us who live in the North of England. The shipyards of Barrow and financial hub in Leeds will no doubt be praying for a yes vote.

They won't need embassies round the world. Lots of smaller nations do not have that. They could have regional hub missions, which could be either free-standing or as 'interests sections' co-located within any friendly nations' missions (UK would be obvious choice, but it doesn't have to be). They will however need to pay for the space /services they use and supply the staff.

About the passport/visa/nationality...if you are currently a UK national, you will always be a UK national and entitled to a UK passport

I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about the kids I will have. And my grandchildren. I cannot conceive how, in my lifetime and in my children's lifetime certainly, Scottish nationality would be of any use.

They won't need embassies round the world. Lots of smaller nations do not have that.

Which goes back to the point about trade, position in the global economy and attracting investment. Not to mention the cost of setting everything up. And actually lots of small nations ime have embassies across Europe, the Middle East and Asia.

I like having the securities of an embassy when I travel. I don't want to lose this for me or my family.