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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think its ok to tell voters that businesses will move south if its a yes?

413 replies

Loopylala7 · 14/09/2014 03:02

If these businesses do intend to shift south of the border if its a yes, shouldn't the voters know this is a possible outcome? Why is it considered unfair for this information to be out? Can somebody please explain? Am I being a bit dense?

OP posts:
Veritata · 15/09/2014 14:20

A new Scottish government can offer incentives to attract and retain business.

What with? Bear in mind that, if it wants to take over British assets and systems, it is going to have to pay for them. And am I right in thinking that it will have to set up and fund, for instance, its own passport office, border controls, revenue collection systems, health service, benefits and pension systems, postal system, prison service, etc etc?

Numanoid · 15/09/2014 15:06

According to Miliband's spokemsn, border controls would not, at least solely, be Scotland's responsibility.

"Mr Miliband's spokesman added last night: 'The last time I looked there were two sides to the border - and we would be in charge of one of them. It would be up to us, not Mr Salmond, to secure our northern border.'"

MaryWestmacott · 15/09/2014 15:28

Numanoid - that works with all boarders, that both sides have to have controls, the uk would only be responsible for checking those coming in had right to enter the UK/EU and those leaving where allowed to leave, it would be down to Scotland to check that people coming in had a right to do so, the UK would only be interested in checking they were ok to go out. Scotland would have to establish boarder controls of their own.

HaroldsBishop · 15/09/2014 16:31

Are there any arguments on the "yes" side that don't boil down to either:

"Trust me, it'll be fine!", or

"Freeeeedommmmmmmmmmm!!!!"

?

WildThong · 15/09/2014 16:34

Harold
Why? Is having two answers not enough for you?

zipzap · 15/09/2014 16:42

Daughter I get that Scotland (or at least those that vote Yes) want to create their own future for Scotland. But I don't see why the discussions should be had after not before the vote. People would be voting on what would actually happen rather than than some pie in the sky hopes that they have been promised but have no basis in reality. Just because AS says he wants to be in the EU with the pound doesn't mean it is actually going to happen. So it would be much fairer for these things to be hammered out beforehand so people would actually know what independence entails.

There are some people that would vote Yes or No whatever the cost to the nation and its individuals because of their die-hard beliefs in Yes or No being the most important thing. There are lots of others that would vote yes if they knew they could keep the pound and be a member of the EU for example - but would vote no if it meant having to have the Euro. And so on for all the major decisions that need to be taken about what an independent scotland will be like. For most voters it's not a simple Yes or No vote - it's a difficult balancing act, a tricky decision based on who you think is telling the best version of the truth or the fewest lies or has the best information. It's very much an 'It Depends' decision where knowing what you are voting on will influence which way you will vote.

And voting before any of the answers have been provided means that lots of people will be very disappointed with the reality of a new independent scotland if it happens, because they will discover that they liked a particular flavour of independence that was mentioned and that chimed with them - and when the reality is different they are going to feel very cheated.

Sorting the answers out before the vote still means that the scottish people are sorting out their own future. However voting before the answers have been sorted out just seems like a tactic to entice more people to vote yes because you can tell them that they can have what they want if they vote yes, and to hell with what they actually want and what actually happens. It's insulting to the Scottish people and the vote would be a hell of a lot more legitimate if people knew what they were voting for.

HaroldsBishop · 15/09/2014 16:44

Well something with a bit of substance would be nice! It doesn't affect me either way the Scottish people decide, but to an outside perspective it looks like most of the "Yes" case is based on emotional arguments like that, with the "No" side being more fact based (if perhaps a little scaremongerish)

zipzap · 15/09/2014 16:46

Daughter - and as for 'And some people feeling more British than Scottish? Perhaps they should be less selfish minded and think of the greater good.'

Maybe they think they are thinking of the greater good and that you're not. Just because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they haven't thought about it any less or with any less care.

WildThong · 15/09/2014 17:00

Harold
You do know I was being sarcastic, right! Grin

ApocalypseThen · 15/09/2014 19:44

Are any of these companies promising to move if it's a yes promising to stay if it's a no?

Chunderella · 15/09/2014 19:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

merrymouse · 15/09/2014 19:50

What is unreasonable about being cautious about the unknown, particularly when it comes to handling other people's money?

I

nicename · 15/09/2014 20:00

I don't know why SA didn't produce a paper outlining how exactly the country would be run.

A bank wouldn't lend you money to start up a business on the basis of 'I have a great idea. It's brilliant! We love it! I have every expectation that it will be really really successful but I haven't quite figured out the plans or money side of it'.

We need details. I'm amazed that they aren't giving us figures and plans. We are not a bunch of thickos who won't understand Big Numbers.

EarthWindFire · 15/09/2014 20:28

Are any of these companies promising to move if it's a yes promising to stay if it's a no?

In my DPs case if the vote is no then the reason for going is gone, iyswim.

Iflyaway · 15/09/2014 20:30

I,m not from UK but did grow up there.

I see the yes campaign being ruled by their emotion but no logic or reality.

maybe missed it but where is the reality after the vote... Euro/pound? EU/when?

Business/NHS/national debt payback?

Why can,t EVERYONE in UK vote? After all, you all pay taxes, whether England, Wales or NI as well as Scotland.... as in one family helping everyone....

I foresee the mafia moving in, all that oil money :-)

Rainbunny · 15/09/2014 21:29

I heard some Scottish people talking on the radio about their direct fears if there is a yes vote victory. A couple pointed out that they had pensions from their careers in the NHS. What happens to them in the face of a suddenly Scottish only funded system? There are worries about the healthcare budget so it's seems very sensible to worry about the future of their pensions. It must be terrifying to suddenly see their financial fate for the remainder of their lives up in the air like this.

This is what I find worrying about the YES campaign. These sorts of questions are being asked but there are no answers or even attempts at answers coming back from the SNP. Just saying that everything will work out and any concerns are fear-mongering is unbelievable to me.

ApocalypseThen · 15/09/2014 22:04

In my DPs case if the vote is no then the reason for going is gone, iyswim.

I do see what you mean, but why give up the opportunity to have independence in order to pander to the whims of companies who'll up and go as soon as they're not suited by one thing or another? They're not offering security or a quid pro quo, just issuing threats.

EarthWindFire · 15/09/2014 22:06

It isn't the only reason we are voting No. Wink

tabulahrasa · 15/09/2014 22:19

Why would pensions already paid into be affected? You can live abroad and be paid UK pensions, why would an independent Scotland be the exception?

Original poster
Loopylala7 · 15/09/2014 22:27

What happens with passports? If its a yes, will all Scottish people have to have new passports? or will their existing passports work until they are due to run out?

What happens to students who might want to study in other parts of the UK? will they have to pay an international student rate?

Questions, questions, questions...

OP posts:
Original poster
Loopylala7 · 15/09/2014 22:34

Also, if 'Yes', if Scotland aren't instantly accepted into the EU, would Scottish people then need a Visa to work in the rest of the UK?

OP posts:
tabulahrasa · 15/09/2014 22:34

Passports, don't know, haven't cared enough to find out if there's a plan...it's not really up there with banks and pensions for me tbh.

Students, it'd be the fees for whatever status Scotland has at the time, surely? International or EU.

BigDorrit · 15/09/2014 22:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tabulahrasa · 15/09/2014 22:37

Anyone who is currently a UK citizen will still be a UK citizen, it's only people born after independence who are old enough to work, so that would only be an issue if Scotland still isn't a member of the EU in about 18 years.

tabulahrasa · 15/09/2014 22:39

Because the money already paid in went to paying the current (and previous) generations of pensioners. "It wasn't invested to produce a nice lump sum at retirement. The whole system relies on more people continuing to pay in to keep the current oldies alive."

Yes, but people live in all sorts of places after retirement and are still paid a UK pension.