to wonder what English MNers think of the Scottish referendum?

[OTheHugeManatee]

I'm English. I quite want Scotland to vote Yes. Personally I'm not sure the financial arguments stack up but I think you can argue it either way. I want a Yes vote not because I think Scotland should eff off or anything puerile like that, but because I think we're long overdue a serious constitutional shakeup in the British Isles and a Yes vote might well be the thing to trigger it.

Also I'm quietly (and, I hope non-xenophobically) quite firmly Eurosceptic. One of my main objections to rule from Brussels is the lack of democratic legitimacy: I don't feel that my vote counts for much in deciding who gets into power there. So I can sympathise with Scottish complaints that they feel the Westminster government doesn't represent their views and never really will. Given that I want freedom from Brussels so as to go back to self-determination as a democratic nation, logically I can't object to Scotland wanting the same thing.

But other English MNers seem to feel quite strongly the other way. If you're English, what's your view?

As a (probably) totally irrelevant aside, the name 'Wales' comes from the Anglo-Saxon word 'wealas', meaning 'foreigners' - a legacy of the Anglo-Saxon invasion of a formerly Celtic country, where the Celts were driven back into the difficult-to-navigate edges of the country, ie Cornwall, Scotland and Wales. 'Cornwall' comes from 'Kernow' - the Cornish name for the region - combined with 'wealas'.

So Wales means 'those foreigners over there' and Cornwall means 'those Cornish foreigners down there'.

There's some ancient colonial history for you

Now here's a thought!
There have been numerous suggestions and once an experiment, to change our time zone.
Some would like to do away with summer time or stick with it all year round, to avoid all that clock-changing twice a year.
Others would like to change to Central European Time - an hour ahead.
These changes have always been rejected because it would not suit people in the far north.
If Scotland leaves the UK, we won't have to worry about them any more. We can choose our own time zone to suit ourselves. Scotland will have the freedom to do what they want as well.

Well, I only meant Kent as an example. I'm sure there are areas in the south east with poor public transport and no work. The point is that within areas like 'the south east' or 'the north' are many smaller pockets with their own specific issues.

I think this just illustrates the problem with carving countries up into smaller and smaller regions. However and how small you divide them, people will always find things to criticise about the chosen borders.

Yes to permanent summer time, European time might be even better.

I'm English in England but my dad is Scottish (he's in England and has been long enough not to get a vote), I really want a No vote, my family in Scotland are mostly for Yes, though.

I tend to think that the idea of political and cultural cohesion in the US is overstated somewhat. Which may be why the Federal government is so dysfunctional.
States Rights v. Federal Government is a balancing act that the US government has been playing since the very beginning, and they don't always get it right.
I actually think it wouldn't take much to break the US into smaller, but still multi-state, Federal regions within its own borders.

Some time ago I read an interesting piece on the de-evolution of governments, and the way large and seemingly stable governments can disintegrate surprisingly quickly, much faster than they form, especially during times of economic or social instability. I wish I could remember more of it, it seems remarkably pertinent to this conversation.

I think this just illustrates the problem with carving countries up into smaller and smaller regions

Scotland has never been viewed as a "region" in the eyes of its people.

Christ, this thread has well nigh pushed me from a naw to an aye.

I need to stay off threads like this until after the referendum otherwise I may end up voting in a way I regret.

There have been rumblings recently about the USA disintegrating. And you are of course better placed to comment on US cultural/ideological stuff than me. Certainly recent culture wars and government shutdown type stuff suggests American democracy isn't entirely happy just now.

All of which underlines what I was saying about democracies needing a demos to function - in other words, a group of people who feel their interests and values are closely enough aligned to make voting a reasonable and civilised way to settle differences about how to run things. It goes pear-shaped when groups within the overall collective have such fundamentally incompatible ideas about how to run things that they can't agree on anything.

Do post that link if you find it.

I find it really interesting that just at the point when the globalisers are talking about states needing to get bigger and bigger --don't start on about the EU again Manatee- we seem to be seeing a resurgence of people campaigning for smaller states and identities. A bit like the way Fukuyama announced 'the end of history', as liberal capitalist democracy seemed to have comprehensively triumphed, and Brown declared 'an end to boom and bust' - and then about five minutes later the Twin Towers were hit, and the financial crisis happened, and it all went to shit again.

Pumpkin - don't take this the wrong way, but are you sure you aren't seeing slights where there aren't any? My reading of that bit of discussion was about devolving power to the English regions, and speculating about what they might be. Which went on to discussions of the differences within different bits of England. I don't think anyone here was calling Scotland a 'region'.

Dumnonia! Yep quite fancy living there (or West Wales as it also seems to be named).

yy to Western Wales. Since I have lived down here, I have tried my damndest to convince the Cornish they should be supporting Wales in the Six Nations, because really they are Welsh. No luck so far though...

Manatee, yes, I was not calling Scotland a 'region'. Maybe it's my fault and I should have been rigorous about language and said nothing that could possibly be taken as a slight or an anti-Scotland sentiment, but sweet Jesus it does seem like people like Pumpkin are looking for things to be insulted about.

I don't think anyone here was calling Scotland a 'region'.

There have already been posters on this thread calling Scotland a region.

In among all the other insults about "whinging", "chips on shoulders" and how we can all "eff off".

But whatever, like onlylovers said, I'm obviously only looking to be offended.

The majority make their points in a reasoned and non-offensive manner though. There are some particularly interesting points about colonialism that you've chosen not to engage with.

Arguably, your post 'Always feel threads like this stoke up that undercurrent of anti Scottishness on this site' is one of the most inflammatory on this thread. There's an undercurrent of anti-Scottishness on the whole of MN?

I'm English, living in Scotland. Voting no.
The referendum is already tearing the country apart, with a nasty undercurrent of abuse creeping in from both sides.
God knows whats going to be like here after the 18th, regardless of the result, with one side crowing and one side furious.
I work with businesses and know several actively - seriously actively - planning to relocate if a YES vote.

I personally favour a reorganisation along early Roman imperial lines for rUK. This would have the distinct advantage of moving the administrative capital to Colchester, easing the pressure on house prices in London as civil servants, politicians, and lobbyists move to East Anglia.

I lived in the US for seven years. It's an interesting old place. Ninja is right that there's a lot of constant tension between the state and federal level. However, even though that and the culture wars exist, it's hard to see any particular issue or group of issues getting enough traction to spark a series of secessions. I just can't see any serious appetite for it. An awful lot of the Republicans who produce things like the shutdowns do so because they fundamentally don't believe in having any form of government at all. So it's hard to see them agitating for any kind of alternative sovereign state based on their own states, because they just don't believe in the State at all. Particularly not one that is governed by a democratically elected Black man. They are fundamentally not interested in democracy at all.

The only potentially destabilising thing I can see on the horizon would be if there were big enough demographic changes in the southwest. If you had a majority Hispanic population in say TX, NM, AZ and southern California, you'd have a group of states that were geographically linked, shared common ethnic, linguistic and cultural ties, and might be politically cohesive and fairly politically distinct from the rest of the US. And if you could take TX and southern California with you, you'd have a pretty strong basis for a powerful economy. However I think that's still a long shot. Hispanic Americans are generally really, really happy to be Americans and I don't see this happening any time soon.

People have also been talking for a while about splitting California up into a bunch of smaller states. There's currently a proposal going around to split it into six states. However the likeliest constitutional change to happen in the near future would be statehood for DC. Even that though is not super likely - it is way down the agenda for almost everyone except DC residents, and the Republicans almost certainly wouldn't let it happen because on current demographics DC would only ever vote Democrat.

It's interesting because as Ninja says there are some fairly deep politico-cultural divisions in the US, more so than in Canada, I would say, and the federal government doesn't seem to work as effectively as in Canada. Yet it is Canada that has most recently gotten closest to having a province secede. The American Civil War casts a very long shadow indeed I think ...

Applefalling You are closer to the mark than you think ...

I personally favour a reorganisation along early Roman imperial lines for rUK. This would have the distinct advantage of moving the administrative capital to Colchester, easing the pressure on house prices in London as civil servants, politicians, and lobbyists move to East Anglia

I think I love you FairPhyllis. I'll be living outside Roman rule though - does that mean no bureaucrats? Sounds good to me. No central heating either though. Hmm.

This would have the distinct advantage of moving the administrative capital to Colchester, easing the pressure on house prices in London as civil servants, politicians, and lobbyists move to East Anglia.

Excellent idea! Let Essex and Suffolk take the strain for a change.
A Yes vote is going to send a lot of FS people down to the City and that's going to push up house prices even more. It's a serious concern for those of us already in the south-east.

The damage they have done to my country under the Blair/Brown administration is immeasurable

Yes, damn those Scottish men in charge of the British Labour Party, Sallying

saintly Yes, you will be living in a far-flung semi-autonomous region with an economy based on tungsten mining, and coping with annual summer invasions (tourism).

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose ...

I am looking forward to being able to take out my grievances with the council via fighting rather than written complaints though. Long Live Dumnonia/West Wales!

Sorry for this stupid question but I've literally been Googling it for hours and still have yet to find an answer:

Why can't the english vote on scottish independence? Surely everyone in the UK should have a vote?

Or to put it another way:

If two people are going to divorce, shouldn't both be involved in the process?

If you want to use divorce as a way to think about this then it's more like one person deciding to leave the other - either can make that choice. The sorting out of the practicalities and legalities happens later and the continuing UK would be involved in that part.

I'm English, from the north but living in the SE. Hate the traffic, love the weather WM is about 35 miles away but I could be living in Inverness for all the connection I feel to it (gorgeous architecture inside though misses point ), I wonder if there is a misconception that non-Scottish British folk have some additional connection to WM, I have never encountered that, everyone moans about the government no matter who is in charge.

I hope the vote is a no. Scottish husband hopes it is no, Scottish neighbours hope for a no and their family in the Central belt are all no voters; Scottish MIL living in England is hoping for a no.

My DH was quite nationalistic in his younger days in Scotland and would have been a yes, but having lived and worked abroad in several countries, working with people from all over the British Isles and quite a few years in England, he has changed his views and now identifies with being British as much as Scottish.

I adore Scotland, I visit most years. Love Edinburgh and The Cairngorms national park particularly.

I do worry in the event of a yes vote as I think it is inevitable that the negotiations between Scotland and the UK will become hostile and cause even more resentment than the campaigning has.

Pumpkin-this thread is full of reasoned debate, admittedly there are a few offensive posts but no where near the number I have noticed on other Scottish Indy threads.

Forgive me if I am wrong but it does seem to me that you have become a little sensitive. Not surprising considering the unpleasant tone that much of the debate has taken in Scotland and on much if the Interne

Why can't the english vote on scottish independence? Surely everyone in the UK should have a vote?

Because it would never result in a Yes ?