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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To refuse to engage with anyone who uses of instead of have?

404 replies

ExitPursuedByAKoalaBear · 31/08/2014 21:29

That's it.

OP posts:
Thumbwitch · 01/09/2014 07:48

Oh fuck this I just wrote a massive post and the stupid fucking computer fucked it up. Angry

OP - YABU to disengage from posters whose English is not up to your standards, you'll probably miss out on some really useful posts.
YANBU to be pissed off at the reducing standards of English in general, however - it's insidious and it's only going to get worse, as more and more people perpetuate incorrect usage of words without correction.

DS1's reading book for this week has several "sense" errors - use of the wrong tense, extraneous articles in sentences, that kind of thing - no actual spelling mistakes, because no doubt they ran it through spellchecked before printing, but their proofreading didn't pick up these other errors.

Reliance on spellchecker is disastrous - it can spot a mis-spelt word but won't always be able to tell you if you've used the incorrect word in a sentence. And it's shit for scientific papers - doesn't like the language style at all.

longestlurkerever · 01/09/2014 07:59

Sign there is a world of difference between politely pointing something out (though query how polite corrections are when posters bark 'it's 'your' not 'you're'' in response to a sensitive OP but I assume you're not one of those) and campaigning for better education and the sneering snobbery that is evidenced on this thread.

In any case one person's dumbing down is another's democratisation of the published word. No doubt more errors do go uncorrected but we have access to writing from all walks of life now and can communicate with each other better than ever. I think that creates another form of richness.

I do wish schools were better at teaching spelling and grammar but I am not going to sneer at people who get things wrong. My parents happen to speak RP so I was brought up knowing which was the 'right' way. Doesn't make me a superior person.

CarryOn90 · 01/09/2014 08:11

YANBU at all

SignYourNameInBrownAndFlame · 01/09/2014 08:17

lurker I've never been able to find a polite way that doesn't sound patronising so I just say nothing. (Obviously evidence of my own inability to use language as precisely as I would like!)

There was a thread a little while back from someone frustrated at not getting any job interviews. Her OP was littered with spelling and grammatical errors. Now that could have been because of a disability, it could have been because it was just social media and she CBA to write properly but her applications were spot-on, it could have been because she was never taught SPAG at school...who's to say? I wanted to suggest that depending on the jobs she was applying for and how important written communication and/or attention to detail would be, she might want to ask someone to proof-read her CV or applications. I composed and deleted a number of replies but ultimately I couldn't find a way of saying it that didn't make me sound judgy. I had judged, of course, but I had judged her spelling and grammar and how that might affect her presentation of herself to a prospective employer, not her as a person if you can see the difference. I was judging her skill as she had demonstrated it not her inherent personality, just as an employer would (i.e. I didn't automatically assume she was "thick").

I would also split hairs with you and say that we are communicating more easily with each other, not necessarily better.

FreudiansSlipper · 01/09/2014 08:25

These threads are never lighthearted

Why pretend they are

longestlurkerever · 01/09/2014 10:20

Sign -Yes, sorry -it wasn't you being sneery. Your post was very measured and I agree with a lot of what you say. I wanted to offer my proof reading services to dd's nursery for their website as I thought it probably put a lot of people off, but couldn't find the right way to offer. Should just have offered really - they could always have told me to bog off.

On communication - pros and cons. You do have to wade through a lot of guff to find stuff worth reading on the net, but poor spelling=guff isn't necessarily the right way to filter ime.

Suzannewithaplan · 01/09/2014 11:10

I don't see the use of 'of' for have as poor spelling, and I certainly wouldn't bother to correct it, to me it is a marker of socioeconomic position and intellect.

Same thing happens when I hear a radio phone in and the caller has the 'fake Jamaican' twang.

I find it hard to take the person seriously, to give much weight to what they say.

Modes of expression, accents, choice of words grammatical structures are all ways in which we align ourselves with certain subcultures.

Why would I direct my time and attention towards those who flag themselves up as less intelligent, I want to get on in life not dumb myself down.

CoteDAzur · 01/09/2014 11:10

LRD - re "You find disablism especially funny, cote?"

I guess it was not obvious to you that what I find funny is you calling OP "disablist" because she won't debate with people who write could of instead of could have, the majority of whom will have no disability whatsoever.

This is such a target-rich environment, that I don't know where to start. Given that you seem to be claiming authority by virtue of "three degrees in English Lit" and an upcoming role teaching Oxbridge undergrad students, should I point out the irony that you are defending wrong spelling and grammar, à la 'So what, of can soon mean have'? Should I mention the English comprehension problem that must have led to your perception that I find disablism funny? Or is it intellectual dishonesty, if you understood what I said very well but pretended not to, so you could (hopefully) score a point?

I think I'll just sit here and Smile

CoteDAzur · 01/09/2014 11:24

More seriously, as someone mentioned downthread, this sort of mistake will get your CV chucked into the 'refused' pile. It is not the same thing as a simple spelling mistake (which can happen to anyone and is "only" a symptom of carelessness) and is considered a sign of insufficient education, as well as verbal & written language skills. If you possibly can, it is a very good idea to put time and effort into understanding why it is "have" and not "of", and working on getting used to the proper use of these words.

Same with inappropriate use of the apostrophe. A CV with apostrophes in plurals will be among the first to get chucked out.

Please take my word for this, and if you regularly make one of these mistakes, take the time and put in the effort to correct them.

PhaedraIsMyName · 01/09/2014 11:30

"Should of " and "could of " don't make sense.

In the lyrics of the song I linked to the singer clearly sings "Should have, could have been me"

"Should of, could of, been me" is nonsense.

www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/of

slithytove · 01/09/2014 11:36

I hate it so much. Do people who use it (written or typed) know it's wrong?

I assume they hear 'would've' and translate it as 'would of'?

Suzannewithaplan · 01/09/2014 11:36

The mistake (if I'm not mistaken) lies in hearing the contraction 'would've' as 'would of'.

If anything I suspect it marks you out as a person who doesn't read books?

longestlurkerever · 01/09/2014 11:38

...to me it is a marker of socioeconomic position and intellect...Why would I direct my time and attention towards those who flag themselves up as less intelligent, I want to get on in life not dumb myself down.

This is just horrible (and gramatically incorrect, though that's irrelevant) and a perfect example of why I think the attitudes on this thread are so awful. Even if we accept that it is a marker of socioeconomic position, why would you only want to converse with people who you deem to be in the same socioeconomic position as yourself? Why do you think those people deserve to be taken more seriously than others? That's what I meant by thinking you are superior. It's just a horrible point of view. Why not try opening your eyes and ears and listen to people that might not share your own narrow perspective on the world?

Nancy66 · 01/09/2014 11:44

ProfessorVon - you're the one getting that wrong, not everyone else.

The spelling is different on draw and drawer but the pronunciation is the same.

SignYourNameInBrownAndFlame · 01/09/2014 11:44

lurker I agree that "poor spelling" doesn't automatically equal "guff" but it does immediately put up at least a partial barrier.

I appreciate I have a slightly old-fashioned view (and no doubt some people would consider it pompous) but my thinking on this is as follows:

If you (generic 'you') are putting something out there that you want other people to read, the responsibility is on you to make it as readable as possible. If you want people to invest something of themselves on your behalf, be that their time, their comments, their advice, their promotion of whatever you're offering etc, then you need to invest a little time and effort yourself making it as easy as possible for them to give it - whatever 'it' may be - to you.

I don't mean every Mumsnet post should be worked on like a doctoral thesis, but a brief proof-read before hitting Post, a quick look-up of words you can never remember how to spell, even just including 'sorry for any typos, am on phone/typing while baby-wrangling' or similar goes a long way and makes it more likely you will get the range of responses you seek. I see it as a courtesy to the people you want to attract to your outpourings.

It's a bit like the 'paragraphs' argument that pops up here from time to time. I admit, if I click on an interesting-sounding title and see a long block of unbroken text, I tend to close the thread quietly and move on as I find it wearing on the eyes to read. I have dry eye syndrome and extreme myopia and my eyes get tired/sore very easily, and I do have a by-now-subconscious thought process along the lines of "if they can't spare the time or effort to hit Return half a dozen times, I'm not going to tire out my eyes mentally doing it for them". The exception of course is if the title or the first line or so indicates that the OP is literally desperate and/or in immediate distress, as only a real dick would focus on the lack of paragraphs in that scenario - although sadly I've seen it happen. What I don't do is post on any thread saying "ever heard of paragraphs, OP?" or "TL;DR" or any of the shitty comments I've seen on such threads; I just quietly move on.

I do appreciate that spelling comes more easily to some people than others (whilst also acknowledging that in my experience, the people I know well who have dyslexia tend to be more careful about trying to spell correctly) and if you could make the effort to be clearer / more coherent and choose not to, that's fine so long as you accept that some people may be put off by it and will choose not to read your post/blog/whatever. (And to clarify - I'm not talking about the odd typo or autocorrect fail, or an odd mistake or two in an otherwise completely understandable post.)

ArsenicyOldFace · 01/09/2014 11:45

If anything I suspect it marks you out as a person who doesn't read books?

Not necessarily.

Reading chunks of prose doesn't entail paying close attention to individual words for most people. It's a skimming process.

As a mistake, would have/ would of doesn't seem very different to (hesitates to mention it) bought/brought and that error is baffling because it is quite evident in spoken language. Or at least that's how it seems to me.

Quenelle · 01/09/2014 11:45

It doesn't annoy me but I often notice on here people using 'too' instead of 'to' when it's at the end of a sentence, eg 'I didn't have too'.

I think it's because they think there should be some emphasis on the word so one 'o' isn't enough.

UncleT · 01/09/2014 11:51

YADNBU x 1,000,000.

Suzannewithaplan · 01/09/2014 11:51

Longestlurker, I'm not saying they don't deserve to be taken seriously, it's just that I personally can't be arsed, it puts me off, my eyes glaze over and I switch off. Same thing happens when I hear an Essex girl voice, or rising inflection.

I am not suggesting this should form the basis of government policy fgs, it's just my personal reaction.
I don't get much out of trying to communicate with people who come across as a bit thick, so why would I bother to engage with them?

longestlurkerever · 01/09/2014 11:56

As a mistake, would have/ would of doesn't seem very different to (hesitates to mention it) bought/brought and that error is baffling because it is quite evident in spoken language. Or at least that's how it seems to me.. Well it depends on who you generally listen to, doesn't it? If your peers generally use "could of" and "brought" and so on, then you are more likely to drift into that when writing and will have to make more of a conscious decision to use the correct form. If you don't hear that pronunciation very often you are less likely to make the mistake and using the correct form takes less conscious thought. It doesn't necessarily follow that you are less lazy. Plenty of people on this thread have made typos and used all lower-case letters etc. But because that doesn't mark them out as a member of a particular socio-economic group it is considered acceptable by the same people who berate others for laziness in spelling and grammar.

I do correct people's spelling and grammar at work. I don't think it doesn't matter because I know that poor spelling and grammar affects clarity and how a message is received. I don't make sweeping judgments about that person's ability to make a valid contribution to a discussion on the back of it, that's all.

ArsenicyOldFace · 01/09/2014 11:58

Quenelle I make all manner of outrageous homophonic typos of that sort when I try to type at any speed, as though I am dictating to myself and lose track of the meaning.

I am an appalling two finger typist. And dyspraxic. I have been obliged to hire secretarial services for all big pieces of written work from my u/grad dissertation onwards. Errors don't necessarily indicate ignorance.

I'm quite relaxed on MN about double checking because I view conversation on here as chatting rather than formal written communication. It's slightly uncomfortable to be reminded that others have such a different view that they will dismiss flawed posts out of hand.

Suzannewithaplan · 01/09/2014 12:00

If your peers generally use "could of" and "brought" and so on
Doesn't that also mean that your peers are a lacking in intellect?
Birds of a feather...

ArsenicyOldFace · 01/09/2014 12:02

longest I suppose I see the difference as being that in some accents 'would've' could plausibly be misunderstoof as would of, wheras 'brought' (meaning bought) is plain wrong. I don't hold it against people. Not remotely. I just wonder why nobody ever set them straight.

ArsenicyOldFace · 01/09/2014 12:04

Suzanne you don't imagine everyone gets to look around on their 18th birthday and pick a peer group with a free choice do you?

Suzannewithaplan · 01/09/2014 12:08

No of course not, the processes by which we tend to gravitate towards those who share our backgrounds and view points etc are obviously largely unconscious rather than deliberately chosen.

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