PIL have a huge gold over us but was this comment too far

[Thisreallysucksass]

I do not want to come across as a ungrateful grabby cow. I am very fortunate.

Long story shortened.

Husband and me met 15years ago his parents had a rental house that we moved into and paid them going rate rent. After a year we approached them and asked if they would consider us buying the house as we loved it. They said yes, but husbands bad credit/ccjs and low wages from both parts meant we couldn't get a mortgage. They said they would let us buy the house with the money we were paying them rent. So that's what we have done. We are very grateful towards them for the generous offer. We have now 15years later paid off the house.
We are expanding our family so have been looking to move, we are moving very close to the PIL, we got a good valuation on our house but the area we want to move to is expensive so we are pushing our limits with what we can borrow. Mil approached me before our house viewing (I am very close with her we speak every day on the phone and they see the DC often)

She said they had been looking for a rental to set them up for there retirement and would we consider this. They would like to put a good Chunch of there money down as a deposit ( less than the value of our current home) on the new house we were certain we wanted to buy. They we keep the house we are in rent it out then spilt the rental amount we will get with them. (The house has got a good rental fuigure due to the renovations we have done) they were very happy with that arrangement and I was to manage the property for them. We spoke and it sounded a great offer and it means we would able to live comfortably I manage the property and they take half the money. Seemed good.

So we have decided to buy the other house but the owners are not in any hurry to move it could be a long while yet. We have involved them in the process.

We went for another viewing yesterday and FIL came, we met the owners of the house and they showed us round the house. FIL will chat to anybody and was telling them about the property they already own.

In earshot of both of us he said "well we have already bought them a house and now we are buying them this one" the owner of the house looked embarrassed and I was gutted by this comment and bit my tounge thinking we are very fortunate and they have been very generous to us. We left shortly after. When we got home I was very quiet and spoke to husband about it, he said his dad was out of order and that it was very hurtful to him what he said. His mum (who does brag about money / possessions) has been telling all her friends infront of husband that they are buying us a new house. He didn't correct her.

Everyday I speak to MIL she reminds me how lucky we are and says how great full we should be, I reassure her we are very much so. But it is brought up all the time. We have bought them a lovely gift to show them how great full we are but this isn't going to go away they have a hold over us.

Now we are considering talking to them both and telling them we feel worthless and see what happends. But we are really thinking to go with our original plan of selling up and doing it our selfs.

So am I being unreasonable at these comments? Shal we speak to them or put up and shut up?

I think you are being over-sensitive and grabby

They did buy you your first house
Without them you would never have been able to have it.

Due to their kindness you are now in a position where you are able to sell that property and move into a larger house with a large deposit for a new property.

I think that you should certainly pay them a large amount of the profit made on the house to put them in or at least near the position that they would have been if not renting to you.
(I know you say that it was your substantial renovations that made the property so desirable...how did you afford these?)

Before you moved in they were renting that property out to tenants. After 15 yrs, with other tenants, they would still have owned the property plus had all the rental income received over the years.
They are the losers in this and are kindly offering to give you even more money....

Your priorities need to be realigned imo

But ronald they chose to sell it to them. If they wanted to still own the house and have had all the rent, they would not have made the decision to let them pay the mortgage payments and buy the house. They made that decision then. The house was no longer theirs, when they made that decision.

Let me just clarify a few things

When the original arrangment was set up the PIL got three valuations, they picked the highest one added on interest and also added on 30k for "market value" so in effect we have already paid them some money.

Now the house is worth just short of £100k than what we paid (the sum 15years ago)
This is where my husband is getting suck (hard to convince someone who thinks there right)
We paid 40k in renevations
The PIL already had 30k
And he wants to give them 40k
So the value were now at is -£10k he can't understand that if we go ahead with that then we are loosing money and not gaining from our renevations. I would like to give them £10k then that leaves us 20k profit.
To clarify I'm not sure where all this has come from with my husband. I think he just really wants to move and is using this to make me bite my tongue.

We have spoke at great lengths and I will be speaking to PIL but I just feel that the damage has been done now. They can't take back what tey have been telling people.

I was shocked that the comment was from FIL as it is usually MIL who likes to brag and tell everyone our business. When we first signed up to the original agreement MIL was in the supermarket and she stopped one of my friends she had met previously and was asking her about the house and if they liked it, this is quite a normal thing for her.

Like another poster mentioned she's invited her friends over to look at the place after our renovations, I just thought it was very rude.

RE the new financial arrangment they have always used the term gift. The were going to gift us the money towards the new property. (Another poster said it should be against the old property and I agree even tho I never thought of that)
I've spoken to MIL and said that if property prices go up in a few years that we could sell the old property and they can have all there gift back plus extra plus the "rent" and she said no we don't want the money back.

So I'm pretty confused as they don't want it back but we will be in there debt forever and I don't think that's wise!

I think you should be more grateful really. And less bothered about what other people think.

Move into the nice house that you love and say thank you to your generous in laws. Your worth is not dictated by how much property you own, no one thinks less of you for taking gifts from your family. My in laws help us out financially all the time. They are wealthy and we are not. I am very grateful and I never hold it against them, they are trying to be nice.

Speak to your in laws face to face. If you try to do these things over the phone they always go wrong as you can't see the body language. They will probably be upset that you are upset.

Your in-laws are obviously very generous, albeit totally lacking in tact.
I think some posters are finding it hard to comprehend that some people actually do have this sort of money at their disposal to give as a gift. I think your original arrangement comes under the heading of a gift, they allowed for some increase in value anyway, you shouldn't feel obliged to pay them more.
As for this second "gift" - I wouldn't accept it as such. I'd allow them to properly purchase a share in the original house and have a business arrangement over rent and running costs, or forget it.

When the original arrangment was set up the PIL got three valuations, they picked the highest one added on interest and also added on 30k for "market value" so in effect we have already paid them some money

Their actions around the "value of the house" sound sensible, but you've mentioned having paid them "some money" but not clarified whether it's the total of their valuation

If it is then there's really no more to be said - you've paid them the value of the house and that's that

If it isn't then they've clearly been very generous and I honestly think that however uncomfortable it may be, you could acknowledge the reality of this and be a bit more grateful

I think your dh is being u to want to give them so much cash but I basically agree with trice, it doesn't sound to me as though they're screwing you over, it's just an issue of bragging. I would care, but then I'd go back to my lovely house and close the door. Also, I've done the stressing about ILs and you can't change them, you want to have a cordial relationship for your dcs' sake. They didn't mess you around on xferring ownership last time so by all means get things done legally this time too but I really don't see you care what others think, even when they've been fed some untruths.

Why was the 30k added on?

You were buying it, surely you would pay what it was valued at on the day you agreed? I wouldnt pay and extra 30k on top for a house so the new owners didnt lose out on the increase in value!

So, you paid the market value AND 30k AND interest but your DH wants to give them 40 k on top of that?

That makes no sense whatsoever!

OP, you and your husband need to see a financial advisor.

It sounds to me as though you paid a more than fair price to PIL for your house with rent at highest value + interest + 30k appreciation. Your husband is mudding the waters with saying you should give PIL another substantial sum.

Getting into another murky financial arrangement with them sounds like a bad idea when you can't agree on what the current arrangement is. Go and see a financial adviser together and WRITE DOWN what you agree.

I find all that confusing to be honest. To me, either you own the house or you don't. If you do, you can choose whether to stay in it, or sell it and put the equity towards a new house, or rent it out. Surely the house has nothing to do with your PIL anymore?

I am reading this as PIL sold you a house AND then loaned you the money for it with a mortgage, type agreement attached.

They are NOT out of pocket - this house was SOLD many years ago to the OP - the PILs have had the money paid to them for that house sale, not in a lump sum but a monthly figure. I wonder if that did not benefit them in some way in terms of tax, etc.

I don't understand your husbands thinking at all... he wants to move, you cant afford it alone so he want to pay PIL more money AND move? Has he planted a money tree in the back garden to fund this? Bonkers

Are you sure that you paid top market value for your current property plus interest plus an additional £30k and that you managed to pay off this huge sum of money in 15 years rather than the more usual 25 years for a mortgage? And while you were doing this you also paid £40k for building works to the property?

The three valuations your PIL obtained gave you the market value so you should never have agreed to pay the additional £30k for so called " market value." This is the point at which your PIL cease to look quite so generous but I can't see why you agreed to the payment. Since you have paid them £30k over the valuation then they are not morally entitled to any further sums.

It sounds to me as though you paid a more than fair price to PIL for your house with rent at highest value + interest + 30k appreciation

Not really, RhiWrites - OP said "we have already paid them some money" but we don't know whether this comes anywhere near the value of the house, with or without interest and appreciation

Actually part of me feels it's none of our business, but after all OP chose to start the thread in the first place ...

The original payment plan was set over 20years however we have both got better jobs over the years with a increase of pay. When we originally applied for the mortgage we were refused we were both on a very low wage. But over the years have worked our way up. We are no way on fantastic wages but our bills are reasonable we budget shop so we were paying off the PIL a good chunk of money each month. I received a decent amount of inheritance from my parents when they passed so paid off the house earlier than planned.

I have spoken to MIL this morning and expressed how generous they have been and how the comments have really upset us. She was great, totally understood and was quite modified and said how unlike FIL it was. She said she was going to have a word and put a stop to it.

MIL told me that she gets why we feel this way as she was brought up in a tiny house in a terrible area and over the years has worked hard and some good investments in property had paid off. Both MIL/FIL parents have passed and they were left good sums of inheritance so they kept there basic lifestyle and just invested the money and have done very well out of it.

I'm not sure what is going to happen now as they really want us to accept the money but I just don't know what to do.

After trolling the net for hours if we relocate pretty far we can get a lot more for our money, so there are options out there.

And for theses of you who are confused about why my husband wants to gift them more money, 40k, well I'm not sure why either.

Men, there from another planet sometimes!

Thanks for clarifying how you managed to make the payments in 15 years.

It's interesting how your MIL can see that FIL spoke out of turn to your sellers but doesn't seem to see that she also spoke out of turn when she spoke to her friends / neighbours about your financial business!

Don't let your DH agree to pay the PIL any more money - drag him off to a financial adviser who can explain why he has already paid more than enough for the property.

As for the new property, book some viewings further afield and see what property is available out there because the deal your PIL are suggesting in respect of the new property works to your disadvantage.

There is no reason why the new arrangement can't work, as long as it is all done legally. You sell them a share in the old house. The money they pay for this can be used as a deposit for your new house. You then pay your new mortgage from your wages and the profit from your new business, ie half the rent less expenses.

You will own your new house and be in business with pil.

If they choose to give you extra money then they need to know that is a gift and will never be mentioned in terms of them buying you anything. It is a generous gift of money to be used as you see fit, that you are grateful for but not beholden to them.

Because I haven't spoke figures I will say to clarify things.

The PIL have owned our current house for many many years. I'm led to believe the sum it was purchased for originally was £20k maybe slightly less.

When we started renting all those years ago we were paying in the region of £400/£450 rent. This was the going rate at the time in this area. At the time my monthly take home was was £600/£650 and I was a office jr and even back then for a full time job it was low pay. My husband was on more than me but he had huge debts he was paying off.

The top valuation was £120,000 and we all agreed at the time £30k appreciation was fair as the housing boom had just started. So we were at the £150,000 mark
At this time my husband had joined the forces so was getting a decentish wage but as he was traveling his outgoing were pretty small so food shopping and bills were low as it was just me most of the time at home and I worked full time so we were repaying about £800 possibly more back to PIL per month.

In both our jobs we have worked our ways up so getting not bad salary plus my inheritance has cleared the debt of the house. We live a basic lifestyle.

We have been lucky we bought when we did as I have many friends who bought during the boom that paid more than what we did for a 1bed flat, and now the market has settled many are in negative equity and will never be able to sell up. So we are very fortunate that we were given a huge headstart.

Yes that is what it was a huge head start. But that is all it was. They made a decision to sell the house to you at that time. End of.

Rhiwrites and Bouttime both have good advice: get a financial advisor, and whatever the situation with a future house that the ILs have anything to do with, ensure that a legal agreement is drawn up. It always sounds very 'cold' to say this when it comes so close to home and to family - but this is precisely what can be so bloody and devastating to the selfsame people, when things go wrong. Perhaps say that you want to prepare your wills so you need exact clarification on your and DH's assets to get everything properly sorted, and you want much clearer control and fewer financial grey areas with the new house.

Thanks Ormally that makes perfect sence. We haven't got wills drawn up and it's something we do need to do.

MIL did comment that she's not entirely squeaky clean herself as she has had a bit of a gossip herself. She said that it all stops now and she will engage brain before speaking.

Actually, it's probably better to release the equity from the old house and put it in the new house. Have a buy to let mortgage on the old one as there are tax implications. We were told that it is better financially to have a buy to let mortgage even if you can afford to buy a buy to let outright.

In other words get financial advice

Has the house you live in been transferred to your names or is it still in their names and on down to trust. Are you aware of the capital gains tax position?

Hope your MIL remembers that! I'm sure she didn't realise how humiliating that sort of thing would be to you (esp in a small village - I can't get on with that situation and feel myself having to run after a few years!!)

It did occur to me though - the basis of why/how both your in-laws have been able to say these things to people is that they have quite an intimate knowledge of your (historical) financial affairs as a couple, mainly cos they are very entangled with elements of theirs. I don't think I'd be too comfortable with that if I were in your shoes, especially as you are now more out of the woods than 15 years ago. If you can, take a bit more control and independent advice (ie. also don't use a 'family' solicitor or anyone fulsomely recommended by blood relatives or the parish magazine unless you are absolutely sure!!)

OP, you MIL sounds nice and though a bit thoughtless, not malicious or smug. She wants to help her son and his wife and that in itself is a good thing. I don't think you and your husband owe them as much as 40k at all and considering that your ILs wanted to give you a boost when starting out, it would seem daft to just give them all your profit - defeating the object surely?

If you are not keen, do not invest with them again - take the wonderful start that you have had and buy a property that suits your needs within budget...your DH sounds a wee bit spoilt really, he wants the house he can't afford and won't budge on it but its your decision too