to start yet another Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 3 folks.

We should arrange an Indyref meet up at this stage.

but offer automatic bursaries to all Scottish students

I seriously doubt that would survive one challenge in the courts.

I seriously doubt that would survive one challenge in the courts.

But why not? I have wondered that too. After all at the moment it is not that higher education is free in Scotland, it is that the fees for your first course are paid by SAAS. I can't see why that can't continue? Everyone pays the same fees, but Scots fees are paid for by the state?

In the event of a No vote the block grant will be cut, WM's way of forcing Holyrood to raise taxes so they don't have to do it.

Can you give some evidence for this? I haven't seen anything - but admit that I haven't particularly looked.

I also think it's easy to think of financial services as being a bunch of rich folk, but it's not - how many people does it employ in entry level admin/call centre type roles.

Unfortunately at the moment, though, most people will be in these call centre roles for years, and never advance, even if they want to. It's difficult to get even an entry-level job nowadays.

A friend of mine is fully-qualified in a specialist area of applied science, and works in a call centre with no sign of advancement and no jobs in his area are available. He was refused for numerous call centre jobs before he got that one, too.

When I was looking for a job after graduating, the first one I applied to was my part-time student job as luckily they were hiring for my exact role again, and I wanted something so I could have an income. I got a letter saying my skills didn't match what they were looking for. It wasn't due to previous behaviour in the role either, I was never off sick and my appraisals were the best they could be.

That's one of the reasons independence is appealing to me, too. The job situation in the UK is rubbish for graduates.

Because the state paying for only Scottish students would still be discriminatory. If I remember correctly, EU legislation about not discriminating against people from other member states is a lot wider than just "what are tuition fees" and would be really quite hard to get around. Technically at the moment Scottish students tuition fees are funded by the Young Students Bursary or the Independent Students Bursary - but we still pay it for EU students too.

Can you give some evidence for this? I haven't seen anything - but admit that I haven't particularly looked.

wingsoverscotland.com/the-barnett-future/#more-49579

Yes its Wings but it saves me copying and pasting all the quotes individually.

Also
wingsoverscotland.com/how-scotland-will-be-robbed/#more-60211

wearenotinkansas Sure, here's a source:

www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/hundreds-of-millions-to-be-cut-from-scots-block-grant.21208769

Not sure if this is the original source I read, but I'm at work so just found one that isn't from either campaign!

Because the state paying for only Scottish students would still be discriminatory. If I remember correctly, EU legislation about not discriminating against people from other member states is a lot wider than just "what are tuition fees" and would be really quite hard to get around. Technically at the moment Scottish students tuition fees are funded by the Young Students Bursary or the Independent Students Bursary - but we still pay it for EU students too.

This is worth a read (link starts a download)

www.universities-scotland.ac.uk/uploads/briefings/Note%20for%20Universities%20Scotland%288025053_v4%29%20DOC%288033180_3%29.pdf

X-posted with ItsAllGoingToBeFine but there's a few to choose from now.

I agree it's difficult to get entry level jobs just now and some people, you are right, will be in call centre roles for years - but some will advance. Kind of like any industry really, no? The graduate employment situation is crap in general - I only graduated 3 years ago and I remember it well but I don't see why independence will improve that in the slightest. I do genuinely believe FS will be hit, which employs a lot of grads and even more indirectly - lawyers, accountancy firms, consultancies etc etc who all take on grads. I've also seen a fair amount of concern expressed about science and research funding. Big industrial companies like BAE take a fair number of grads especially in science/engineering - but how hard will they be hit?

But hasn't the Herald come forward as pro-independence as well?

To save folks reading entire thing...

"Conclusion As a matter of EU law it would appear that it may be possible to rely upon a residency requirement for access to preferential fees and grants regimes as long as that requirement is applied to all students regardless of their nationality and can be objectively justified. It will be for the government seeking to introduce such a regime to establish, on evidence, that there is a legitimate aim which can be objectively justified which would allow them to derogate from the overriding principles of freedom of movement and non discrimination."

So your sources are a pro-independence newspaper (declared and open about it) and a pro-independence (and very slightly nutty) website?

Surely, this is just a guess! (or a fear?) but there is no evidence from any budgets, government press releases etc.

But hasn't the Herald come forward as pro-independence as well?

No just the Sunday Herald.

My instinct is that my children will be more likely to leave Scotland for work in the event of independence. But I've no links to support that!

So your sources are a pro-independence newspaper (declared and open about it) and a pro-independence (and very slightly nutty) website?

Can you show evidence of politicians being quoted saying there will be no changes to block grants/Barnett formula?

You'll note it says quite clearly that it is only "potentially defensible", and also has a hell of a lot of potential reasons why it wouldn't work. I certainly think that "keeping free tuition fees" is a bonkers reason to vote for independence given the huge uncertainty over it.

You'll note it says quite clearly that it is only "potentially defensible", and also has a hell of a lot of potential reasons why it wouldn't work. I certainly think that "keeping free tuition fees" is a bonkers reason to vote for independence given the huge uncertainty over it.

Oh I agree - and I don't think it stands up as a reason on its own. Of course it also perfectly likely that rUK will leave the EU and that would also solve the issue rather neatly

StatisticallyChallenged

My point wasn't that it wouldn't be discriminatory, but that bursaries legally can be as discriminatory as they want.

Well - not as much as they want - obviously there are limits. But there is a lot of precedence for funding in the form of grants / bursaries only being open to people from a given country.

But also it is not discriminatory if free education is not available to Scots (by birth) but to all who fulfil a residency requirement?

I think bursaries which are given out by, for example, charitable organisations can be discriminatory. But when you get to the position where the state is funding those on a mass scale it's a lot harder to claim it's non discriminatory. As I noted above, we do actually have tuition fees in Scotland it's just that they are paid for by SAAS in the form of the young students/independent students bursary. But despite that title we still have to let EU students come here and have the same fees paid for.

So your sources are a pro-independence newspaper (declared and open about it)

As has been pointed out the (daily) Herald hasn't declared itself pro-independence, and the editorial in the Sunday Herald announcing their support makes it very clear that they are making this decision independently of the daily edition.

And the thing is that there are very few neutral sources. I think the Financial Times is probably the only one I can think of. The BBC and the mainstream UK newspapers may not have declared themselves but they are also very biased in the opposite direction!

StatisticallyChallenged

This may open a whole other can of worms, but state-funded graduate bursaries and grants are restricted on the basis of nationality. The AHRC only funds full scholarships (fees and living) for UK students, fees only for EU students, and nothing for non-EU students. Many EU students undertake graduate (or indeed undergraduate) study in the UK by taking advantage of state-funded bursaries for students resident in that country wanting to go specifically to the UK.

I must say, I've found the BBC and The Times (only paper we get) to be quite fair and balanced. For every 'pro' article they also do an 'against' article.