To think it is unfair that Scots and Welsh students don't have to pay for university education whereas English students do, even if they attend a Scots or Welsh university?

[Dolcelatte]

It just doesn't seem fair at all to me. Young English students are saddled with a mountain of debt at a young age whereas, as I understand the position, the Scots and Welsh don't have to pay. No doubt some wise MNer will correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't have anything against the Scots or Welsh students or begrudge them their good fortune; they are very lucky. And I know that life isn't fair, but even so....
(this is where I would sign off with a suitable emoticon but IT skills sadly lacking by this mother of 2 DC at English universities).

[Viviennemary]

But if you are a principality you can still be a country like Monaco for instance. Gosh it's getting a bit like pointless when Richard gives his definition of a country. When we say country we mean ..... I wonder if it will all leave a very sour taste after the decision is made whatever it may be.

[StatisticallyChallenged]

It's debatable whether Scotland not automatically joining the eu would count as stripping citizenship though isn't it? scots are currently British citizens, and my understanding from previous situations eg where colonies became independent was that those people didn't cease to be British. So would scots not still be eu citizens by virtue of their British citizenship even if we weren't in the eu?

[SantanaLopez]

I wonder if it will all leave a very sour taste after the decision is made whatever it may be.

I think it will be, which is really, really sad. I hope it's a decisive vote but all of the polls so far are really quite close.

That's a good point, stats, but it gets you back onto the point of having a whole country populated by expats Anyway, there's a full thread for this!

[JanineStHubbins]

Oooh, good point StatisticallyChallenged.

[OpiesOldLady]

Wales also has free breakfast club for all primary aged schoolchildren.

[Applefallingfromthetree2]

So am I right in thinking that after a 'yes' vote Scotland, as no longer part of the UK, would need to accept English students to Scottish universities on the same basis as other EU students and not charge them fees? Or will Scotland no longer be part of the EU? Quietly screaming here!

[JanineStHubbins]

So am I right in thinking that after a 'yes' vote Scotland, as no longer part of the UK, would need to accept English students to Scottish universities on the same basis as other EU students and not charge them fees? Or will Scotland no longer be part of the EU? Quietly screaming here!

Yes, but only if Scotland remains part of the EU. Which is not at all clear.

[wafflyversatile]

Your issue is not with Scotland or Wales or their students but with Westminster. They are not lucky. You are unlucky.

[SantanaLopez]

We'd have to reapply to the EU.

If we could do that in the 18 month period from this September to March 2016, in the September of 2017 English/Welsh/NI students would have to be accepted with no tuition fees or they would have to start charging everyone.

If it takes longer, the current situation might be able to stay in place. But I would argue that we'd have to adhere to EU rules in the application process anyway to show compliance, so again, they'd either have to let English/Welsh/NI in free or start charging everyone.

Clear as mud!

[Applefallingfromthetree2]

A whole country populated by 'expats' -this really made me laugh Santana. It seems to be getting more and more ridiculous. Has any of this really been thought through, it's turning into a bureaucratic nightmare.

We have got better things to spend our money on surely. And don't even get me started on the flag

[iamsoannoyed]

taxi

but MPs who vote in Westminster are not the same people who are Member of Scottsh parliament (MSPs)/welsh or NI assembly members- so they aren't voting one way and then another.

In scotland it is Scottish Labour/Conservative/LibDem- and whilst they broadly have the same policies, they are not just duplicates of the westminster party (in theory). So it is possible that westminster labour MP may vote differently from a Scottish Labour MSP. I think there is a general lack of understanding on this.

The only way to fix things to address the issues that many English people raise here re MPs from outside England voting on purely English matters, such as education and health, is to have an english parliament. Scotland has benefitted from a parliament which actually care about Scotland (before this it felt like we were pretty much an after thought in a south-east England-centric government).


If you didn't do this, and just banned Scottish/NI/Welsh MPs from voting on English matters you would in effect bar anybody not from England (or at least whose constituency is outside England) from holding any sort of government office. After all, how could you have a welsh or scottish PM or say education secretary if they were unable to propose a policy or vote on their own or their governments policy for instance?

[Mrsjayy]

Yes it is unfair clegg promised it for England he has let his country down oh scots fees are not paid by Westminster btw some were hinting at that .

[SantanaLopez]

A whole country populated by 'expats' -this really made me laugh Santana. It seems to be getting more and more ridiculous. Has any of this really been thought through, it's turning into a bureaucratic nightmare.

I know! We were talking about it on one of the other threads. Britain surely can't declare all of Scotland's British passports void, but yet they really have to or else there will be a supposedly independent country with no citizens! It's madness.

[JanineStHubbins]

A whole country populated by 'expats' -this really made me laugh Santana. It seems to be getting more and more ridiculous. Has any of this really been thought through, it's turning into a bureaucratic nightmare.

Well, the precedent exists from when the Irish Free State was established in 1922. Some people went for Irish citizenship only, some retained their British citizenship. As far as I know, people born in the Republic of Ireland can still claim British citizenship if they had a grandparent born in Ireland before 1922. And it wasn't a bureaucratic nightmare.

There wasn't the EU complication then, mind you.

Britain surely can't declare all of Scotland's British passports void, but yet they really have to or else there will be a supposedly independent country with no citizens!

No, there won't be. British citizenship can be held alongside other citizenships (is that a word?).

[empathetic]

1. People are quick to blame "Westminster" but it was the Scottish MPs in Westminster that swung the vote to bring in uni fees! It is the classic West Lothian question.....the Scots get to vote on what happens in England on student fees but the english do not get a say in Scotland. We need an English parliament.
   

1. If Scotland vote for independence then they won't be able to continue charging English and Scottish students different fees (ie none compared with £9k per annum) as this will be discriminatory against another member state (assuming Scotland remains in the EU). At the moment they can discriminate as "England" is only part of the home state. Other Europeans also get free education at degree level in Scotland already due to EU discrimination laws.

[amothersplaceisinthewrong]

If Scotland becomes independent then can we in England charge overseas rates to Scottish students.....

[TalkinPeace]

"expel?"
Who ever said anything about "expel"

If Scotland walks away from the EU - in the same way that England and Wales might, they walk away.
They then have to apply to join
in the same way the UK did in 1971 after De Gaulle stopped blocking it
in the same way Slovakia and the Czech republic did
in the same way that each fragment of the former Yugoslavia has had to apply

If you believe that EU membership is a given if there is a 'yes' vote next month you need to read more different news sources.
Spain, France and Italy will do everything in their power to stop any 'devolved' country joining the EU

[SantanaLopez]

No, there won't be. British citizenship can be held alongside other citizenships (is that a word?).

Thanks!

Apparently Westminster could still veto shared Scottish-British citizenships?

It just seems bonkers to potentially have a full country of British expats, depending on how quickly a Scottish passport office could be set up.

[JanineStHubbins]

Apparently Westminster could still veto shared Scottish-British citizenships?

Possibly for future people born in Scotland after independence comes into force (should it happen), not sure if Westminster can retrospectively strip citizenship. It won't take long to set up a Scottish passport office, though - all those things will be in place before then.

[Applefallingfromthetree2]

It does seem the devil is in the detail -or lack of it. So much left unclear, so many unanswered questions, everything driven by nationalism and perceived economic gain.

[SantanaLopez]

Thanks Janine!

[TalkinPeace]

When Yugoslavia fell apart, Yugoslav passports were valid until new ones could be issued.
Ditto (in a far more peaceful manner) the breakup of Czechoslovakia.

Nobody will be stateless.
BUT
If Scotland is daft enough to vote no, they may find themselves out on the end of a very long limb.

Spain in particular will take great pleasure in obstructing every move towards integration with Europe for reasons that have nothing to do with Edinburgh.

[TalkinPeace]

Yes, sorry .... no to UK was my brain
Scotland would be mad to vote for independence

[empathetic]

mothersplace Yes, if Scotland becomes independent and not a member of EU then we can (?will) charge Scottish students overseas rates. If they join the EU then we cannot charge them more than we charge home students.

I agree with talkingPeace, Scotland would be mad to vote for independence. As an english taxpayer, though< I think we would come out of it quite well.

[iamsoannoyed]

empathetic- I doubt there will be a yes vote. I also doubt if there was a yes vote that the english tax payer would be much better off. There is some debate about the actual figures, but most analysts think Scotland probably produces in revenues roughly the same, or a little more, than it receives as a block grant income. This is muddied by the UK-wide companies and whether they would still be here if Scotland left the union. I am not a rabid Scottish nationalist, but nor do I believe all the "Scotland lives on the back of the English taxpayer" that has been peddled.