To think it is unfair that Scots and Welsh students don't have to pay for university education whereas English students do, even if they attend a Scots or Welsh university?

[Dolcelatte]

It just doesn't seem fair at all to me. Young English students are saddled with a mountain of debt at a young age whereas, as I understand the position, the Scots and Welsh don't have to pay. No doubt some wise MNer will correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't have anything against the Scots or Welsh students or begrudge them their good fortune; they are very lucky. And I know that life isn't fair, but even so....
(this is where I would sign off with a suitable emoticon but IT skills sadly lacking by this mother of 2 DC at English universities).

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

Not everyone who applies for a place at uni (wherever that uni is) gets one. I don't understand the argument that all Scots uni places will be taken by English kids? (Though I agree that an indy Scotland, which is still part of the EU, would have to extend free places to English candidates.)

Talkinpeace, however, says we'll never be part of the EU, so...

[StatisticallyChallenged]

Sheer volume would mean that a lot of the places would be taken though - English population is roughly 10 times that of Scotland, and because we're on the same land mass, speaking the same language etc it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a very considerable number of applicants which would mean far more competition for each place. If we're not allowed to discriminate then the numbers would suggest a vast number of places going to english students.

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

Those places would only be taken if iScotland remains part of the EU, (No says we won't...) and rUK doesn't vote to leave in a couple of years. (Which it looks as if they might.)

I think iScotland will, easily, remain a part of the EU, and yes, English students will be able to study at the same cost as Scots, as I said. But if rUK votes to leave the EU, the situation changes; I certainly wouldn't be putting my kids through that particular uncertainty, given their situation could change halfway through their degree (a Scottish degree taking typically 4 years, rather than 3).

[wigglybeezer]

It's not all positive, anecdotally, the cap on the number of Scottish resident students on the most popular courses (they need fee-paying students to make up funding shortfalls) has raised the grades required for local students, and really, really good candidates are being turned away from courses they would have been welcomed onto with open arms in the past and are having to go further afield or take a year out (gap years not being so common up here) having failed to get a place. Admittedly, I am talking about traditionally competitive courses like medicine.

[TalkinPeace]

OldLady
Scotland cannot "remain" part of the EU if it votes yes, because it will be a new country that has never been a member.

And for clear political reasons, Spain, France and Italy will do everything they possibly can to stop a country created by devolution joining.

[LittleMissGreen]

In Welsh schools there is (I think) about £2000 a year less per pupil than in an equivalent school in England, so they just use the money in higher education instead. Hence worse GCSE/A level results in Wales than in England.
In health there may be free prescriptions and free carparking (which benefit the majority) but there are areas of more specialised health care which will not be treated in Wales and the waiting lists are longer.

[iamsoannoyed]

But conversely, if a Scottish student went to an English University they would have to pay the full fees as it is only free to go to Uni in Scotland (if you are Scottish). Don't know what the situation is in Wales.

And I can see why people feel it is unfair- and I suppose it isn't fair in one sense. However, it is up to the Westminster Government to change their policy on student fees and/or for those in England to lobby for that, not for Scotland or Wales to change (unless that is the decision of the respective devolved powers).

Both Scotland's and Wales' devolved parliament/ assembly (respectively) have decided to spend their education budget differently, which they are perfectly within their rights to do. After all, what is the point of a devolved government or an assembly if they have to exactly the same as the Westminster parliament? That would make no sense.

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

Talkinpeace, there is no mechanism to expel 5 million EU citizens from the EU, and no particular desire to do so either. The t&c of our membership will have to be renegotiated, certainly, but the sheer chaos of us not "continuing" to be members is unthinkable, and deeply undesirable for everyone. The EU is an expansionist body, and a pragmatic one.

[Viviennemary]

If Scotland cannot remain part of the EU after a yes vote because it will be a new country, then could you not say neither should the UK because it will be no longer the United Kingdom and should have to reaply for membership as well. The whole thing is wrong. If I had a vote I'd be voting yes after all this blackmailing and scaremongering from people who pretend to have Scotland's best interests at heart.

[JanineStHubbins]

there is no mechanism to expel 5 million EU citizens from the EU, and no particular desire to do so either.

There's also no mechanism to automatically accept secessionist new states into the EU. And there is an emphatic desire from the likes of France, Spain and Germany to prevent such a precedent.

[SantanaLopez]

This has been gone over a million times, OldLady.

EU citizenship is supplementary (over and above) to national citizenship. The EU is not stripping Scots of citizenship; they are doing it themselves through a yes vote, because if Scotland votes to make itself independent from the UK, then Scotland becomes a new country. The UK remains.

The new country must apply for EU membership and the UK remains.

[Applefallingfromthetree2]

As I understand it, it is also the case that students from other parts of the EU do not have to pay university tuition fees when attending Scottish universities. It is only the English that are penalised. This is unfair and amounts to discrimination.

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

There is no precedent for what happens when we vote Yes, so really we're all just speculating. WM could ask the question and get a definitive answer; that they refuse tells me everything I need to know.

Applefalling, it's perfectly legal. We accept EU students on the same basis as our own, but England is a region of the UK and we don't have to accept them on that basis. English students can, of course, go and study elsewhere in the EU under the same conditions as their citizens, I think I read (not sure if on this thread or another) that parts of Germany and the Netherlands have lower fees than England. It might be worth investigating, if you have teens.

[SantanaLopez]

Yes, you are right apple. Incredibly, the White Paper on independence argues that this is alright because of 'the unique and unprecedented position of a post-independent Scotland'.

[Viviennemary]

There won't be a UK after a yes vote. As Wales is a principality and I don't think NI can be counted as a Kingdom. So they will have to apply to rejoin. That's my opinion.

[SantanaLopez]

WM could ask the question and get a definitive answer

No they couldn't. This has also been explained to you. The EU does not work like this!

[JanineStHubbins]

It's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, though - changes to the makeup of Great Britain won't change the United Kingdom bit.

[Viviennemary]

Oh well it was worth a try.

[Applefallingfromthetree2]

Old lady-so it is legal, but how unfair, and it does sound a bit nasty to be honest 'we don't have to accept our fellow UK students on the same basis so we won't', we'll just let them be the only students from the EU that have to pay.

[JanineStHubbins]

[LittleMissGreen]

Wales is now a country not a principality and has been for a few years.

[SantanaLopez]

There won't be a UK after a yes vote. As Wales is a principality and I don't think NI can be counted as a Kingdom. So they will have to apply to rejoin. That's my opinion.

Your opinion is wrong.

The UK continued after Ireland gained independence and it will continue if Scotland chose independence.

It's question 4137 in [[this
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmscotaf/uc140-xiii/uc14001.htm document]] and it is addressed thoroughly here too.

[SantanaLopez]

Try again! here and here

[JanineStHubbins]

Although it is a moot point whether the United Kingdom would continue if NI went independent/joined the Republic. Technically not, I suppose.

[taxi4ballet]

Scotland has a Parliament, Wales and NI each have an Assembly, where their MP's can vote on matters relating to their country; and England has... oh, hang on a minute... nothing.

Oh yes, here in England we have the Houses of Parliament, where not only English MP's but Scottish, NI and Welsh MP's can vote on English-only matters. Is that entirely fair? Not really, no.

Especially when you bear in mind they occasionally vote one way for themselves and entirely the opposite in the Houses of Parliament when it comes to implementing the same thing in England.